Re: [Cbor] [hackathon] Formal Languages at the Hackathon

Stephen McQuistin <sm@smcquistin.uk> Mon, 18 November 2019 07:06 UTC

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From: Stephen McQuistin <sm@smcquistin.uk>
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Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:06:19 +0800
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Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>, "t2trg@irtf.org" <t2trg@irtf.org>, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "cbor@ietf.org" <cbor@ietf.org>, "hackathon@ietf.org" <hackathon@ietf.org>, Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>
To: Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org>
References: <4BD0608C-A277-4130-B85C-D7A75FAEFD8F@smcquistin.uk> <C464EE6D-3DF8-4101-AA26-BD38A61F8E7B@tzi.org> <FF14A414-758A-462A-ADF4-3B6EF051FE32@juniper.net> <26630BB7-A8A6-4A35-BF22-22CEDFDBE3E3@tzi.org> <19B88297-3EB0-4FDD-86A0-E6118729312F@juniper.net> <867BC0C8-651A-4EDA-8C24-2E7C877BF624@tzi.org> <76A4AEEE-7773-4031-988E-00466B23C15E@fugue.com> <b73d9abf-ce92-0498-9604-0ee30d306901@petit-huguenin.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cbor] [hackathon] Formal Languages at the Hackathon
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Hi all,

Given the amount of discussion about this, a new mailing list has been created:

	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fdt <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fdt> (fdt@ietf.org <mailto:fdt@ietf.org>)

The list is for the discussion of formal languages, as they pertain to IETF documents. This includes discussion of the requirements of these techniques, and of their adoption within the IETF.

In addition, a reminder that we’re holding an informal side meeting on Thursday at 8pm. This’ll be at The Winery at CHIJMES (Google Maps: https://g.page/thewinerysg <https://g.page/thewinerysg>) — CHIJMES is across the road from the meeting hotel; once there, The Winery is downstairs. If you’re planning to come along, let us know so that we don’t miss anyone.

Thanks,

Stephen

> On 7 Nov 2019, at 05:13, Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org>; wrote:
> 
> Maybe we need a new mailing-list to discuss formal languages...
> 
> On 11/6/19 1:11 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> This is getting kind of long for the hackathon mailing list (not that I object to formal languages!).
>> 
>>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 18:20, Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>; wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>  When the complexity of the data being modeled dominates your thinking …
>>>> 
>>>> Tony’s dogma: “Complexity of any successful technology _always_ goes up with time” 😉 😉
>>> 
>>> Indeed, that’s why I talked about “dominates your thinking” (as opposed to “should dominate your thinking”).
>>> 
>>> An interesting effect of having a great FDT technique is that it becomes much easier to handle complexity.
>>> A follow-on effect is that, as it is so much easier to put in complexity, you do put in more of that.
>>> Which will hurt you sooner than you think (*)…
>>> 
>>> So I strongly believe that a prerequisite of using FDT successfully is that the formal model of your shiny new RFC should now fit on one slide.  (Which actually works out for RFC 7071 (+)!)
>>> 
>>> Grüße, Carsten
>>> 
>>> (*) I still remember when I first read the ASN.1 for GSM MAP.  All 950 pages [IIRC] of it…
>>> (+) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8610#page-61
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> hackathon mailing list
>>> hackathon@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> hackathon mailing list
>> hackathon@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hackathon mailing list
> hackathon@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon