Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 (Issue 1/2)
John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> Wed, 21 December 2011 17:42 UTC
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Sadler, Jonathan B." <Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:40:19 -0800
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 (Issue 1/2)
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 (Issue 1/2)
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Jonathan, The definitions in Switching Capability and Encoding Type were attempts to be forward looking; AKA "everything but the kitchen sink" 8->. I think you raise a very good point regarding namespace exhaustion. Thanks, John > -----Original Message----- > From: Sadler, Jonathan B. [mailto:Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 8:50 AM > To: John E Drake; Lou Berger > Cc: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); CCAMP > Subject: RE: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 > (Issue 1/2) > > Hi John and Lou, > > I also have been participating in the GMPLS discussions from early on > (2002). > > One item that always struck me funny the way GMPLS describes (ITU-T) > layers by a tuple of information (e.g. <SwichCap, EncodType> or > <SwitchCap, EncodType, SigType> for SDH/OTN) where the component > information seems to be empirically defined. More specifically: > - Switching Capability defines some things based on large sweeping > definitions but others more narrowly. For example: > TDM (which encompasses SONET/SDH and ODU) > compared with: > PSCx (which looks to be used only for MPLS) > L2SC (which originally meant a combination of Frame Relay, > Ethernet) > - Encoding type defines sub-categories of Switching Capability, but > doesn't scope under Switching Capability. For example: > ANSI/ETSI PDH - when would this be used for a SC other than TDM? > SONET/SDH - ditto > ODU - ditto (prior to use of the new 101 SC) > compared with: > Packet (This is not really descriptive) > Ethernet (more descriptive - looks to be a sub-category of L2SC. > Of course, this has been deprecated.) > > Signal Type is definitely a sub-space of <TDM, OTN> and <TDM, SDH>. > > Regarding the issue at hand: what is probably more important is how > well these namespaces are used. Since each component is a 8-bit value > (today), exhaust is a real problem - especially since there is no > hierarchy/sub-spacing for SwitchCap and EncodType. > > > It is because of namespace usage, I am not in favor of assigning a > Switching capability per ODU type (i.e. ODU0, ODU1, ODU2, ODU3, ODU4). > > Jonathan Sadler > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net] > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 6:17 PM > To: Lou Berger > Cc: Sadler, Jonathan B.; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); CCAMP > Subject: RE: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 > (Issue 1/2) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:24 PM > > To: John E Drake > > Cc: Sadler, Jonathan B.; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); CCAMP > > Subject: Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 > > (Issue 1/2) > > > > John, > > As you probably know, each time we have new technology or a > > change/evolution in a technology the folks involved in the technology > > come up with a fairly technology-specific solution to their problem. > > Part of the WG process has always been looking at the technology > > specific extensions and figuring out what, if any, impact the > > technlogy-specific extensions should have on the common portion of > > GMPLS. Prior to OTNv3, this can most recently be seen in both the > > ethernet and WSON WG work. In these cases, WG participants triggered > > generalization of the proposed mechanisms. This was even the case > for > > Ethernet, where I was on the other side as an author and the WG > > prompted > > taking one document and making it 3. IMO, as both a WG participant > and > > co-chair (yes, this time I'm making a statement as a Chair!), this > > process is consistent, and required, by both the CCAMP's charter and > WG > > procedural precedent. It is also exactly what we, the co-chairs, > said > > in our OTN discussion at IETF-78. (We mentioned defining new common > > mechanisms as part of the solution refinement stage.) > > [JD] As you probably know, I have been one of the most vocal > proponents of generality/commonality/reuse since the beginning of GMPLS > back in 1999 (or so). > > > > > In this case the OTN documents are not proposing a new mechanism, but > > rather using a technology-specific approach. > > [JD] I really disagree with this characterization. The correct > statement would be that the decision to overload Switching Capability > to delineate presumed intra-region (layer) boundaries is made on a > switching technology basis. It was done for packet switching, PSC 1-4, > but was not done for SDH/SONET and is currently not done for OTN. > > > Furthermore, in our > > discussions you proposed modifying/deprecating documented usage / > > meaning of SC Type. I still see this as fitting within 'defining new > > common mechanisms as part of the solution refinement stage.' > > [JD] Absent PSC 1-4, the usage of Switching Capability has always been > as I described. Interestingly enough, PSC 1-4 makes a lot more sense > than your proposal. For PSC 1-4 at least the intra-region layer > boundaries are under administrative control, while you are proposing to > directly equate them with the underlying ODUk rates. As an aside, why > is this not a "technology-specific approach"? > > And you have yet to articulate any reason why this is necessary. I > think the quote from Sergio this morning was a compelling and succinct > rebuttal of its necessity. > > > > > See below for specific responses (as a WG participant). > > > > > How does the existence of this draft, which will have no new > > > information, help the chairs gauge rough consensus on this issue in > > > the WG, > > > > It depends on which issue you are talking about. If talking about > the > > general issue as discussed above, I hope it will close it for the > > future. > > > > If talking about my (individual, not chair) proposal of using > multiple > > SC types for OTNv3, I don't think it immediately does. What it will > do > > is provide context for that proposal. In the interim, I recommend > (as > > a > > WG participant, not chair) tabling discussion on my proposal until we > > know which way the general issue is resolved. > > [JD] The only issue is your specific proposal. > > > > > > especially since rough consensus seems to already exist? > > > (I.e., the editors, authors, and contributors of the OTN routing > > > draft would seem to represent a substantial portion of the WG.) > > > > Well if the WG used this as the sole measure, consensus could have > been > > declared in Maastrict. > > [JD] The proposal developed in Maastricht was far more general than > anything in base GMPLS. The judgment articulated by the chairs in > Beijing was that it was just too different from base GMPLs and that > unfortunately it hadn't been thought of ten years earlier. > > > > > Lou > > > > PS I've noted where I'm speaking as an individual WG participant and > > where I'm expressing opinions as a Co-chair as this message contains > > both. > > [JD] Are you referring to this specific email or in general? > > ============================================================ > The information contained in this message may be privileged > and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader > of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee > or agent responsible for delivering this message to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reproduction, > dissemination or distribution of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the message and > deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Tellabs > ============================================================
- [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 Ong, Lyndon
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Lou Berger
- [CCAMP] R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 (… BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
- Re: [CCAMP] R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF … Zhangfatai
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Julien Meuric
- Re: [CCAMP] R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF … Julien Meuric
- [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF … Zhangfatai
- [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Zhangfatai
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… Ong, Lyndon
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… John E Drake
- [CCAMP] 答复: 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… Zhangfatai
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… Daniele Ceccarelli
- [CCAMP] R: 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF … BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Kireeti Kompella
- Re: [CCAMP] R: 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Ong, Lyndon
- Re: [CCAMP] R: 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Varma, Eve L (Eve)
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post … Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post IETF… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] R: 答复: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Rajan Rao
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … neil.2.harrison
- Re: [CCAMP] OSPF OTN considerations post IETF 82 … Julien Meuric
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Julien Meuric
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- [CCAMP] R: 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IE… BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Sadler, Jonathan B.
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Igor Bryskin
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Julien Meuric
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- [CCAMP] R: 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post IE… BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Lou Berger
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Sadler, Jonathan B.
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: [CCAMP] 答复: R: OSPF OTN considerations post I… John E Drake