Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS] Additional Elliptic Curves (Curve25519 etc) for TLS ECDH key agreement)
Vadym Fedyukovych <vf@unity.net> Mon, 13 January 2014 00:14 UTC
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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 02:13:35 +0200
From: Vadym Fedyukovych <vf@unity.net>
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Subject: Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS] Additional Elliptic Curves (Curve25519 etc) for TLS ECDH key agreement)
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On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 02:39:42PM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: > On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Vadym Fedyukovych <vf@unity.net> wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 07:13:16AM -0800, Robert Ransom wrote: > >> On 1/12/14, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote: > >> > >> > So actually Bernstein went in the opposite direction, not only using > >> > sub-group size, but double sub-group size hash, basically because he could > >> > without increasing the signature size, and thereby slightly even further > >> > reducing the dependency on hash security and hash properties. I do not > >> > consider its necessary, just its because he could, slightly more security > >> > almost for free. But I think an EdDSA variant that used a 512-bit curve > >> > could safely use a 512-bit hash, because even the double width hash is > >> > over-engineering. > >> > >> It can for the hash of the message. > >> > >> > EdDSA also uses the deterministic DSA k trick (computed from m and x the > >> > private key). > >> > >> Deterministic generation of message keys is the primary reason that > >> EdDSA requires a double-length hash function. > >> > >> EdDSA relies on the hash function having double-length output in two ways: > >> > >> * Message key generation relies on the output being noticeably longer > >> than the group order in order to generate *uniform* exponents. > > > > Choosing a message key (an initial random in interactive system) > > from a large interval is a well-known idea for a group of a hidden order. > > For a group of known order, reducing almost anything modulo group order > > would likely result in quite a non-uniform distribution. > > It is non-trivial to see how/whether hash of roughly twice-bitlength of group order > > would be better than hash smaller than group order. > > Completely wrong for trivial reasons. Let's say we are picking a > random number up to k by taking one up to n and reducing. > Write n=kq+r, with r the remainder. Then the bias is exactly r/n, > which for n the square of k is at most 1/k, and hence negligible if > k is big enough. This is clearly better than if the hash length is > smaller than the group order, in which case a significant number of > group elements will never be picked. Wrong conclusion starting from irrelevant definition. Observable S (response in Schnorr protocol) is from ring modulo group order. For a non-uniform probability distribution of S, one would consider bias like max_{i,j} | p(S(H_i)) - p(S(H_j)) |, for uniform distribution of H (hash function samples). No chance to reduce such a bias by increasing hash bitlength. Additional consideration may be helpful to decide whether bias is small enough. Vadym Fedyukovych
- [Cfrg] Thoughts on a Next-Generation Elliptic Cur… Alyssa Rowan
- Re: [Cfrg] Thoughts on a Next-Generation Elliptic… Robert Ransom
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] Additional Elliptic Curves (Curv… Alyssa Rowan
- [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS] Ad… Adam Back
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] Additional Elliptic Curves (Curv… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] Additional Elliptic Curves (Curv… Robert Ransom
- Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS… Robert Ransom
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] Additional Elliptic Curves (Curv… Adam Back
- Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS… Adam Back
- Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS… Vadym Fedyukovych
- Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] EdDSA and > 512 curve & hash (Re: [TLS… Vadym Fedyukovych