IETF Logo Mail Archive

[CFRG] Re: KEM combiners design team output

Neil Madden <neil.e.madden@gmail.com> Mon, 15 July 2024 12:13 UTC

Return-Path: <neil.e.madden@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B14C14F6B8 for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.104
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.104 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fH5LKXYftEMU for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68C53C14EB17 for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-52e98c72d2bso454185e87.0 for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1721045630; x=1721650430; darn=irtf.org; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0gA2fQwQbRJ/9qJ1JW3nMQ5YztyQDy4TM/sdkChZ4IU=; b=M4HZGbFKIr/+AsKFbLKaLw0nG0ndB6Czqw4l+vll5UukHWYYqmezC2gx3qtNcaAoOp ojHJiXov34IKnLo8HxLYjigjyeWVF8j3c30kJru74z5HncD7Hqy8vD7/80l25mNbyfoz VXzUebXHCk69D46kWeWR9ef0arsGZ5AHZyJrCeojOaxzg2Q9+gXCqtSsTunrP5gxMWHV UONeJ003cEJ4AYG874dktz21BKepCanjkLB55ToLE+Jz/KkSfn+th5tHIy0tvXCtQ9wz W9WAb8ycxScA8c/U6GajzkGL4X6S+Ko3Rp43yvMTrRBu14zDXAdwRrVVF8o7MhnBoIHN +uaw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1721045630; x=1721650430; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0gA2fQwQbRJ/9qJ1JW3nMQ5YztyQDy4TM/sdkChZ4IU=; b=R/vmxqM0fP+mBezFp1h8X2qGUT/tQFkG2imH3ZMS8YmekM1tsRycGPi0e2QUEmb4De EBIKf1HcLAPug0widmusNcAL4uzLql/uPkGyp3gVyIP9/t7KPW+U8K3Wv9lM0URqaFti 9jIZErWv89pvaZdK+JKaGP5E4KNONW57DFOM1czzmNX7gYkbK3y23WTa1Udzg1j1zbMv Oh+XTO9yNgFuXN/qMJeEFd9ttA0rZ3EhR9SuhfsuDYw/LAQ5nonNsL0lwVKGZKEmqSKF FdCW86anNVwrMwoD83aRPSkcNkQBNMfWaNb8X9Gu4eHi0pGmtetwD8d8VDIsCH5XPCSE jAKw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzmjW/9ugptKUS+f5KcL9xP00O60fK0pQa7GPFsOzxztHdF+24P QoLToGNx6/j+EQJrKeSKjH+ORCbKTJUIEvoSfHcGKYqTseSJV5y5Xyi0TA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGUY4Ns+JEiWu2sHxkS1xwTS50vteg7K93TO0bxrCzJNMaiydqUUT4w7l006B8JYPacCZnroQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:b84:b0:52e:ccf4:c222 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-52eccf4c269mr4485562e87.9.1721045629392; Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:13:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (183.75.159.143.dyn.plus.net. [143.159.75.183]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-427a5e8144dsm85603915e9.11.2024.07.15.05.13.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neil Madden <neil.e.madden@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <F13AEE0E-7AD7-4D8C-B2E7-F0D38139F6DE@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_789AC4E5-5226-4969-B6B3-E74648039AC2"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\))
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 13:13:47 +0100
In-Reply-To: <20240715114630.1684612.qmail@cr.yp.to>
To: "D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>
References: <20240715114630.1684612.qmail@cr.yp.to>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8)
Message-ID-Hash: OT4KOSINMGSQTZ5GH3A5V5AH2EYQ5SSD
X-Message-ID-Hash: OT4KOSINMGSQTZ5GH3A5V5AH2EYQ5SSD
X-MailFrom: neil.e.madden@gmail.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cfrg.irtf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: CFRG <cfrg@irtf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4
Precedence: list
Subject: [CFRG] Re: KEM combiners design team output
List-Id: Crypto Forum Research Group <cfrg.irtf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/9AINNVKGLL57FvchG16-zhYGfj8>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cfrg>
List-Help: <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:cfrg-owner@irtf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:cfrg@irtf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:cfrg-join@irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:cfrg-leave@irtf.org>

On 15 Jul 2024, at 12:46, D. J. Bernstein <djb@cr.yp.to> wrote:
> 
> Neil Madden writes:
>> Many protocols IMO would be immeasurably improved by
>> de-Fiat-Shamir-ing them back into identification protocols (looking at
>> you, FIDO).
> 
> In this interactive scenario, why not just use a KEM?
> 
> The server's long-term identity key is a KEM key instead of a key for a
> signature system. The client encapsulates to that key (also sending some
> encrypted data under the session key if desired). The server sends back
> a MAC under the session key (or uses AEAD to encrypt data if desired).
> The client checks the MAC and knows it's talking to the server.

Absolutely! https://neilmadden.blog/2023/04/20/entity-authentication-with-a-kem/ <https://neilmadden.blog/2023/04/20/entity-authentication-with-a-kem/>

My own current use-case is slightly different and involves non-interactive messages.

— Neil

v2.46.0 | Report a Bug | By Email | System Status