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Tue, 4 Mar 2025 16:07:35 +0000 From: Tim Hollebeek To: Sophie Schmieg , Loganaden Velvindron Thread-Topic: [CFRG] Re: Taking X-Wing to Independent Stream Thread-Index: AQHbigW4BvVIfmcOTU2mOdzK00mBfrNc/FCAgADkDACABBY+gIABNGOg Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 16:07:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=digicert.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN7PR14MB6492:EE_|BN8PR14MB3299:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4f4b275f-ea96-4b57-a49e-08dd5b36adbe x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|1800799024|366016|4022899009|376014|4053099003|4013099003|38070700018|7053199007|13003099007|8096899003; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: =?utf-8?B?N3NnVVdlTEZpOTJrMEdlaGJzcnduOVZZTGo1SEtPbkgzU3JSZmtvOThnMUlo?= =?utf-8?B?UExvN1dzRFdjdmlldjJkRlAyOVhCT2VIVUk4VDkzVFA2eFphYlFFbDhMdzFN?= =?utf-8?B?S1l5aUE2Um41YkcrS2V0MkJtRmNlY0VnVjExMFpHVFZNazVtRDU4UkIyc094?= =?utf-8?B?Q0Nlc2JQK2NnZWhBQjRLZUE5NjhxazZZYXQ4ZTNnMm93SFRpOEtlUWVncUgz?= =?utf-8?B?bjVaVnpmbndLU2xZQXRoVDIrVncveHVpTk51dUlaNUlmd1BBMHVTeTA5Rm9j?= =?utf-8?B?WDZJMUVvWVZ3a2ptbklCdUtMcjBhb3IweFdOQ2tzOXV3UHFYbFpaU24zd29w?= =?utf-8?B?QXE5L3dPWkU1VHNJTGMveTJYQk9mSk16dkUvdnN1MDhvb2pONFhBWDRSMnQw?= =?utf-8?B?RHZ1dkQwRndFOXp5RlY1YWdlVUdZelZXQXAxSjdIYWRjOVJaNVJpRzRCWFFV?= =?utf-8?B?YWRuQzcvMFk0d1UyRUNyaktSaTdnNGl6RTdSdlRxcHJkV0JocWh4RVBnUUtM?= =?utf-8?B?Yk1OWU1EZHFNbmJvRFhrSzZTcnlRK1E5Y3pYM3YrMUM0UW9Lb25PeHh2YURU?= =?utf-8?B?aWtqblgyUC84blBDUWFxZUJtVngweGZmZ1RaNFlDcmFFYXNtbmtRbE5nLytv?= =?utf-8?B?OE16V1lscnBMOGVLdUlpVUJrNkVxdHg3bnRuZ3pvcGZRcktIMnM5Ulg1emhn?= =?utf-8?B?eG1HeG9Zb1A1Q1cwMXdYcFVtT01CNnhxQ2ZFS0YrSVp2eXkvalZINWQzSjA2?= =?utf-8?B?N0tYRkIxUDUySnlLQXEvSWxvOGZYditzd1Jlc0g0aUd5MXdNc0E4WG44bTUr?= =?utf-8?B?VmR6eGgrMmUrOS9xS2p5V3JvWlNIbU8rOXYyMHdMN2lhTWlJMDNiUXEybFRy?= =?utf-8?B?Qk9aK0VqQ3huejhYUUhzYUd4UnpnWkhkWWtZVVlnWDU2SSt6WG9TWlY1Zzd2?= =?utf-8?B?ZWgweG9heGxqRER0Vy9vd0k5LzVwUk1UTG4rRXpqc3l4TmxyUmVRWGV2bFlZ?= =?utf-8?B?RjljRkk4dkNvU1creTk4RkJoMEJvTm5aemFEQzBOSWZrZHg1NlZTOENVMmlo?= =?utf-8?B?Um50cytXK3g5V1p5eDVlNmFuYXFzb2lwQlUvOFlDUkFOaVVVZFI0YXZaQVZZ?= =?utf-8?B?UTFXUHNwQ1h2emR4RldXckVMU056NzhnRkJpUDkxZ0dmakhWSGo4bGwvTlpa?= =?utf-8?B?OGlKRk9NdzRXT1VKOExMNWRycDVlTHBqY2JUY2h2a1laWTE1WVJBWWtENys5?= =?utf-8?B?aU5oSDR2U0I3TVR4T1MwR0M3R1QvQThEUVg4NHZ5bUd3U3JaZTZnYWZwcnNs?= =?utf-8?B?YVp0S2EzK3J6QXRSNFZWQnJSKzBUd0xYSjYzd2VQazZOSk5ZaGJ5blNpaENU?= =?utf-8?B?RC85YVd0U0tOYnBzdDRUYVV6dnoxVEtFcXN0ZmpmWEw5bXA3eWs1MzVjanRM?= =?utf-8?B?d3NrL1RLaDJaeUxkTmpjMlJab3MzNUVUaFF3WWxCZWRwRFlSWWxpT29yTGUr?= =?utf-8?B?bk9wOXpRcERXM0xkbFIrNHFOeDdYKzZhUFZ1bDVLeXhiallzOGJkRGhLbm5v?= =?utf-8?B?WjhYdEUrR0xFVWN0Qm1rQ1JCN01BZ3hqbHVKQ0NiWlpkbHFBMzFFOWlaY0JI?= =?utf-8?B?c0h2VkViL25WNmJaMVhVSHJsK3IyRlUyNGFOamFUK1g1TW5DTS84YkNsR1VV?= =?utf-8?B?Mkt2M0hobmxrUkNSWHR2MWV3Y1g3RzQxbWVLYTFFRm1qSEI5MFdXMjgzSGNW?= =?utf-8?B?N3NqMFlJcERFU0REZ1oxaUJray9QM1g1ZE00VWQ3NnBmWkR4VGlYVC9WeTYz?= =?utf-8?B?M2pHS0J4cURkQzVURE1uaVN3WVJtL1dzQjBZZnZUT0Z6REJFNVlURlcvdDFp?= =?utf-8?B?aWJNZTBNMGFNenAvUDVxTHFMNEw1NmpCSzJ2Nk0ySnAxelE9PQ==?= x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:SN7PR14MB6492.namprd14.prod.outlook.com;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(1800799024)(366016)(4022899009)(376014)(4053099003)(4013099003)(38070700018)(7053199007)(13003099007)(8096899003);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AA_01DB8CF5.A0EDB250" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: digicert.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SN7PR14MB6492.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4f4b275f-ea96-4b57-a49e-08dd5b36adbe X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Mar 2025 16:07:35.7758 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf813fa1-bde5-4e75-9479-f6aaa8b1f284 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: IIzGmZFS72UqvmjnWaRnSk0N1XVL81J7PalQdriASTu60Kb/f3/4h6nqSxmmeozJnu3prMFGWWhzeLLW8UjJMfm5AuLkk5z9PIPeAuSdT0g= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR14MB3299 Message-ID-Hash: MVZQ7AZ7RBWJ4NGIYIIKYYSV7APHKWCC X-Message-ID-Hash: MVZQ7AZ7RBWJ4NGIYIIKYYSV7APHKWCC X-MailFrom: tim.hollebeek@digicert.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cfrg.irtf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: John Mattsson , CFRG , "Independent Submissions Editor (Eliot Lear)" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BCFRG=5D_Re=3A_Taking_X-Wing_to_Independent_Stream?= List-Id: Crypto Forum Research Group Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01DB8CF5.A0EDB250 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00AB_01DB8CF5.A0EDB250" ------=_NextPart_001_00AB_01DB8CF5.A0EDB250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with this point of view. =20 -Tim =20 From: Sophie Schmieg =20 Sent: Monday, March 3, 2025 4:44 PM To: Loganaden Velvindron Cc: John Mattsson ; CFRG = ; Independent Submissions Editor (Eliot Lear) = Subject: [CFRG] Re: Taking X-Wing to Independent Stream =20 In my opinion, there is indeed some urgency to the adoption of X-Wing. = As mentioned, NIST is referring to it already, and several implementors = are itching to deploy it, but do not want to deploy non-standard = cryptography. This has led to the rather unfortunate situation that pure = deployment of PQC is currently far easier than hybrid deployment, = despite the hybrid deployment being recommended by some regulators = (mostly BSI and ANSSI). =20 X-Wing has been well analyzed in academia [1], I don't think there are = any concerns about the cryptographic correctness that would warrant = further reviews here. The only counterargument I know of is that there are similar, but not = quite equivalent proposals that are more generic, but X-Wing, with its = already well-defined format, is in my opinion a much more mature = candidate, that given the time pressure to finally have a hybrid = standard out would be highly welcomed. =20 [1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/039 =20 On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 11:20=E2=80=AFPM Loganaden Velvindron = > wrote: Last time I checked, NIST is already referring to X-Wing. "This is sometimes referred to as hybrid 978 PQ/T (post-quantum / traditional) key establishment. For example, X-Wing is a hybrid 979 PQ/T KEM built from two components: ML-KEM (a lattice-based post-quantum KEM) and 980 X25519 (a traditional Diffie-Hellman-style key exchange)" >From : = https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-227.ipd= .pdf On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 at 22:27, John Mattsson > wrote: > > Hi Deidre and the X-Wing Team, > > > > I am happy to help with any effort to get X-Wing published as an RFC. = X-Wing is already the de facto standard for practical use of ML-KEM in = TLS, DTLS, and QUIC. I hope it will be MTI as soon as possible. I think = it is essential to document X-Wing in an RFC. I think NIST should refer = to X-Wing as a good example of a hybrid KEM in SP 800-227. Chosing a = fast secure Montgomery curve and using SHA-3 as KDF are the optimal = choices. I am against CFRG combining ML-KEM with anything else. > > > > The only problem with X-Wing is that it is not generic, but X-Wing = should be everybody's first hand choice if they want do deploy ML-KEM. > > > > Cheers, > > John > > > > From: Rohan Mahy > > Date: Friday, 28 February 2025 at 18:23 > To: Deirdre Connolly > > Cc: CFRG >, Independent = Submissions Editor (Eliot Lear) > > Subject: [CFRG] Re: Taking X-Wing to Independent Stream > > I'm willing to do document review. > > Thanks, > > -rohan > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2025, 08:33 Deirdre Connolly > wrote: > > FYI the chairs have declined again to have an adoption call for = X-Wing. The authors are now in discussion with the Independent Stream = Editor to pursue review and publication there. > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-connolly-cfrg-xwing-kem/ > > > > If you wish to volunteer document and cryptographic reviews for X-Wing = we can take those to the ISE. > > > > Thanks for all the interest and support! > > > > Cheers, > > Deirdre, on behalf of the X-Wing Team > > _______________________________________________ > CFRG mailing list -- cfrg@irtf.org =20 > To unsubscribe send an email to cfrg-leave@irtf.org = =20 > > _______________________________________________ > CFRG mailing list -- cfrg@irtf.org =20 > To unsubscribe send an email to cfrg-leave@irtf.org = =20 _______________________________________________ CFRG mailing list -- cfrg@irtf.org =20 To unsubscribe send an email to cfrg-leave@irtf.org = =20 =20 --=20 Sophie Schmieg | Information Security Engineer | ISE Crypto | = sschmieg@google.com =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_00AB_01DB8CF5.A0EDB250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree with this point of = view.

 

-Tim

 

From:<= /b> = Sophie Schmieg <sschmieg=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> =
Sent: Monday, March 3, 2025 4:44 PM
To: Loganaden = Velvindron <loganaden@gmail.com>
Cc: John Mattsson = <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; CFRG = <cfrg@irtf.org>; Independent Submissions Editor (Eliot Lear) = <rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: [CFRG] Re: Taking = X-Wing to Independent Stream

 

In my = opinion, there is indeed some urgency to the adoption of X-Wing. As = mentioned, NIST is referring to it already, and several implementors are = itching to deploy it, but do not want to deploy non-standard = cryptography. This has led to the rather unfortunate situation that pure = deployment of PQC is currently far easier than hybrid deployment, = despite the hybrid deployment being recommended by some regulators = (mostly BSI and ANSSI).

 

X-Wing has been well analyzed in academia [1], I don't = think there are any concerns about the cryptographic correctness that = would warrant further reviews here.

The only counterargument I know of is that there are = similar, but not quite equivalent proposals that are more generic, but = X-Wing, with its already well-defined format, is in my opinion a much = more mature candidate, that given the time pressure to finally have a = hybrid standard out would be highly = welcomed.

 

 

On = Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 11:20=E2=80=AFPM Loganaden = Velvindron <loganaden@gmail.com> = wrote:

Last time = I checked, NIST is already referring to X-Wing.

"This is = sometimes referred to as hybrid 978 PQ/T (post-quantum /
traditional) = key establishment. For example, X-Wing is a hybrid 979
PQ/T KEM built = from two components: ML-KEM (a lattice-based
post-quantum KEM) and = 980 X25519 (a traditional Diffie-Hellman-style
key = exchange)"

>From : https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/N= IST.SP.800-227.ipd.pdf

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 at 22:27, John = Mattsson
<john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:
>
> Hi Deidre and the X-Wing = Team,
>
>
>
> I am happy to help with any effort = to get X-Wing published as an RFC. X-Wing is already the de facto = standard for practical use of ML-KEM in TLS, DTLS, and QUIC. I hope it = will be MTI as soon as possible. I think it is essential to document = X-Wing in an RFC. I think NIST should refer to X-Wing as a good example = of a hybrid KEM in SP 800-227. Chosing a fast secure Montgomery curve = and using SHA-3 as KDF are the optimal choices. I am against CFRG = combining ML-KEM with anything else.
>
>
>
> The = only problem with X-Wing is that it is not generic, but X-Wing should be = everybody's first hand choice if they want do deploy = ML-KEM.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> = John
>
>
>
> From: Rohan Mahy <rohan.mahy@gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, 28 = February 2025 at 18:23
> To: Deirdre Connolly <durumcrustulum@gmail.com>
> Cc: CFRG = <cfrg@irtf.org>, Independent Submissions Editor = (Eliot Lear) <rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org>
> Subject: [CFRG] = Re: Taking X-Wing to Independent Stream
>
> I'm willing to = do document review.
>
> Thanks,
>
> = -rohan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2025, 08:33 = Deirdre Connolly <durumcrustulum@gmail.com> = wrote:
>
> FYI the chairs have declined again to have an = adoption call for X-Wing. The authors are now in discussion with the = Independent Stream Editor to pursue review and publication = there.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-connolly-cfrg-xw= ing-kem/
>
>
>
> If you wish to volunteer = document and cryptographic reviews for X-Wing we can take those to the = ISE.
>
>
>
> Thanks for all the interest and = support!
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> = Deirdre, on behalf of the X-Wing Team
>
> = _______________________________________________
> CFRG mailing = list -- cfrg@irtf.org
> To unsubscribe send an email = to cfrg-leave@irtf.org
>
> = _______________________________________________
> CFRG mailing = list -- cfrg@irtf.org
> To unsubscribe send an email = to cfrg-leave@irtf.org

________________________= _______________________
CFRG mailing list -- cfrg@irtf.org
To = unsubscribe send an email to cfrg-leave@irtf.org


 

-- =

<= div style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'>


Sophie Schmieg | Information Security = Engineer | ISE Crypto | sschmieg@google.com=

 

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