Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: time commitment to fix *production* security bugs for BLS RFC v4?

[Nick Sullivan <[e-mail]>]

Dear CFRG thread participants,

Please take this conversation to a different medium if you wish to continue
in this direction.

Phillip Hallam-Baker's original question has been answered: BLS is useful
in non-cryptocurrency applications and the BLS document is not relevant to
proof-of-work systems. Further discussion of the topic of cryptocurrency is
not relevant or useful here.

Nick (for the Chairs)

On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:04 PM denis bider <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> With all due respect, Eric: the world as we imagined it is literally
> ending, and the future of liberal democracy is hanging by a thread.
>
> There are two paths from this fork: a widespread realization of what's
> going on, or 1984-style totalitarianism.
>
> Those who want to continue business as usual are opting for 1984.
>
> Under 1984, this group has no meaning, and its rules have no meaning,
> because no human value is being realized. Only control.
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 6:36 PM Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> Denis, Phill, etc.
>>
>> Please take this discussion of this list. It is off-topic.
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 4:19 PM denis bider <[e-mail]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> > As a human being living on a planet threatened by environmental
>>> damage from CO2 emissions
>>>
>>> This is probably false. You believe it because you've been bombarded by
>>> messages about it from manipulated media. You spend your time focusing on
>>> your own work. You are doing your work honestly, so you trust that other
>>> people are doing honest work as well.
>>>
>>> This is not the case. The anthropogenic climate change narrative is most
>>> likely false. The world is not warming and does not face harm from CO2
>>> emissions.
>>>
>>> Who are the people who want you to believe the climate change narrative?
>>>
>>> - The IPCC, which is an agency similar to WHO and has a similar amount
>>> of credibility (this is: none). ClimateGate emails have shown the IPCC to
>>> be driven by ideology and to use dishonest science in pursuit of their
>>> goals. Despite claims that subsequent studies have vindicated the research,
>>> these studies were as limited as possible and made minimal findings.
>>>
>>> - Mass media, which are basically run by intelligence agencies and have
>>> consolidated into about 6 corporations. Their narratives are not driven for
>>> clicks, they are driven for control. If you observed the mass media
>>> reaction to 9/11 and the universal support of the subsequent Iraq invasion,
>>> you may know this. If you observed the mass media reaction to the
>>> fraudulent November 2020 election, you know this. If you observed the mass
>>> media reaction to Covid-19, the universal support for lockdowns that
>>> achieve nothing except bankrupt the middle class on purpose, pointless
>>> masks that do nothing but engender obedience, and outright malicious
>>> censorship of vaccine side effects - then you know this.
>>>
>>> If you do not know these things, then all I can tell you that Dan
>>> Kaminsky died a few days ago after a Pfizer vaccination, which he got on
>>> purpose to "encourage others to get vaccinated" in his tweet on March 22.
>>> The mass media are reporting his death as from complications from diabetes,
>>> and playing down any relationship to the vaccines. Dan Kaminsky joins other
>>> notable deaths that coincidentally came after Covid vaccines, including
>>> boxer Marvin Hagler, baseball legend Hank Aaron, Larry King, rapper DMX,
>>> and thousands of everyday people. The vaccine deaths are common enough that
>>> I know some of the dead myself. I still don't know anyone who died from
>>> Covid.
>>>
>>> The mass media are lying to you, and this is not by accident, it is on
>>> purpose. They are lying about the election, about Covid, about vaccines,
>>> and about climate change.
>>>
>>> - China has signed up to the Paris agreement, but its obligations do not
>>> start until 2030. Until then, it is free to build coal power plants, which
>>> it does with gusto. As far as China is concerned, "climate change" is a
>>> great way to get the West to completely tank its manufacturing, so that we
>>> can be dependent on China for all production. This allows them to take over
>>> the West without firing a shot, a coup which they have almost completed in
>>> Australia, Canada, Europe and now also the US.
>>>
>>> - There is a globalist elite that rules the Western world. We have now
>>> seen conclusively that they control most corporations, media and government
>>> agencies, have done so for decades, and they're not elected. These people
>>> have more in common ideologically with China than they do with classical
>>> liberal principles of the West. With the advent of the internet and social
>>> media, their control over the narrative has slipped, and they must now rule
>>> openly. The US constitution is being thrown away and the people are being
>>> indoctrinated to accept more of a Chinese style of rule.
>>>
>>> Climate change is helpful here because it leads people to believe that
>>> there is this worldwide crisis that must be solved, so if we empower the
>>> globalists, we sacrifice "some" liberties but it's for the benefit of
>>> saving the world.
>>>
>>> There is in fact no such climate catastrophe. There hasn't been since
>>> 1989, when the UN predicted that "whole nations will be wiped out" if
>>> radical measures aren't taken by the year 2000.
>>>
>>> That was 21 years ago, and still the world hasn't warmed.
>>>
>>> If you want to educate yourself on this, you'll need a few hours.
>>>
>>> I recommend this very entertaining lecture by Malaysian scientist Willie
>>> Soon:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zrejG-WI3U&t=221s
>>>
>>> Judith Curry:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4AAN0H8MRg
>>>
>>> Christopher Monckton:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGqcweY1a3I
>>>
>>> ClimateGate emails - 10 years after (PDF):
>>>
>>> https://www.rossmckitrick.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/climategate.10yearsafter.pdf
>>>
>>> ClimateGate emails (PDF):
>>>
>>> http://www.lavoisier.com.au/articles/greenhouse-science/climate-change/climategate-emails.pdf
>>>
>>> If you believe in climate change, it is your civic duty to educate
>>> yourself, because this is the overarching narrative that is pushing is into
>>> a worldwide dystopia based on the Chinese model.
>>>
>>> Our work means nothing, our lives mean nothing if the world is allowed
>>> to unfold like this.
>>>
>>> denis
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 12:29 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker <
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a human being living on a planet threatened by environmental damage
>>>> from CO2 emissions, I am strongly opposed to any IETF work to support any
>>>> form of purported 'cryptocurrency' that relies on any form of 'proof of
>>>> work' or 'proof of waste'.
>>>>
>>>> The electricity requirements of cryptocurrencies have been larger than
>>>> that of entire countries. This is an experiment that it is time to stop.
>>>>
>>>> I am entirely serious in this position.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Besides the environmental issues, there is the fact that the
>>>> crypto-currency community has consistently failed to establish any
>>>> effective means of preventing the endemic frauds in their systems.
>>>> Fraudulent exchanges regularly steal money from their customers.
>>>> Applications developed by individuals with minimal expertise are used for
>>>> transfers of vast quantities of fictional cash with no effective oversight
>>>> and this results in further frauds.
>>>>
>>>> The cryptocurrency community has a long history of misrepresenting the
>>>> engagement of parties with established reputations as endorsing their
>>>> 'product'. And this presents real risk to the IETF when the least
>>>> objectionable use of the product in question is to evade currency controls.
>>>> Cryptocurrency became popular as a means of paying for illegal drugs and
>>>> has since become the enabler for ransomware.
>>>>
>>>> The cryptocurrency world has no shortage of people who will trash
>>>> anyone criticizing their activities as 'stupid', 'uninformed', 'need to do
>>>> some research'. Fine, let them sort their own messes out.
>>>>
>>>> IETF should take no action that risks a headline 'IETF endorses
>>>> cryptocurrency'. If the ransomware, child abuse and Ponzi scheme industries
>>>> have a problem as a result of a bad technology decision, we should not lift
>>>> a finger to save them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The only conversations I want to have on cryptocurrencies is with
>>>> government regulators looking for ways to regulate these criminal
>>>> facilitation enterprises out of existence as they previously did with
>>>> eGold, Gold Age and BTC's very long line of predecessors which like BTC
>>>> were entirely different but completely the same.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 10:57 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz=
>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> >    There may be one way: holding implementers accountable.
>>>>>
>>>>> >    They relied on a draft. As such, they took a gamble. Now they
>>>>> lost that
>>>>>     gamble, and gambling ethics dictates that they pay up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes.  Strongly agree that this is the best approach.  This is a
>>>>> *DRAFT*  It would be like implementing Rijndael and then complaining that
>>>>> it has bugs and isn't AES.
>>>>>
>>>>> Contact the people who developed and put things into production.
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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