Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: time commitment to fix *production* security bugs for BLS RFC v4?
Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com> Tue, 27 April 2021 01:30 UTC
Return-Path: <nick@cloudflare.com>
X-Original-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651083A0AE1 for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:30:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cloudflare.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nqC4quYXk48 for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vk1-xa2c.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39C3A3A0AE2 for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-vk1-xa2c.google.com with SMTP id q192so1612022vke.1 for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cloudflare.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3vPPc1gi6sCjUN0kK569QmO0ihEcy7JnV2owCjuW/8g=; b=io7KFXQZCixZQEm9JsLjJIGuyUToXiFJFYzbsQQ++AW0h14xe5LFaAbhnFHAgFKS34 1IxdIYKAex3FM0BuJB72MV0C2yQKb4c+r3198rEvyfln+USJBK3mBZEYwbZ7sL1XT9F8 TXEpqs/Y1x7d23akyYaZ+GFeaE4ny/d9dck80=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3vPPc1gi6sCjUN0kK569QmO0ihEcy7JnV2owCjuW/8g=; b=FdxkM0BECvsrX6PdDNUjChCYA8+LR3cmilpv6H5BlXTwr6qEuh1aROUC/b/Vi+bjoa Tim3sazi+aLyRiGVHwD+r4GoHby7lTQyJE1LktERxgcHu65x3wAWCNqphCrqq7YOWp6/ xgqia/IjuAqJpaPxQnmQ2ttMBky1KdsKiZemYZNvXCrETSL69wrL9bMKsV0qRChZE5aa tDWPWcMsM132Bvv+q8sFakcO5W1dSQK+uDzFem7I5jeNtVabPy9KwbQeu+5JVdg8lits bluMjhEZG5lrbNXRyQkLMNk8xBp3yrhlPYXIQ4G4UZZfzWqtbniXOQWjPsSb/nXPSo9l oN9A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53025JO+Xt97Y56QIdoaQFzR7/Iut/kykWPNmXtcbEaalurNGQRd 3S/2GkxGs9xYqUP0O7Q+XBi8rCvdkdoM1YEhvAs73w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwsvnQXXbXpnSACmqLzGWsoA1h3scPhAEsXy8AQbrI2qLeQuP8IMJYFI83Q4VTynM6FhneRHzvST0XbZXrnsQU=
X-Received: by 2002:a1f:3105:: with SMTP id x5mr15933169vkx.8.1619487044566; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAAEB6g=tU=MF1_QKduEN55ft0rWe+7x0wBbywS083fJrjzP=XA@mail.gmail.com> <20210423195504.d6f74x4jsdrzagcc@muon> <CAAEB6g=dcsRKz6zm7F15F-uZ7Zfi_qF06KwQXmrireKEKZYHFg@mail.gmail.com> <49ca86ec6409217d60e3f2e94e3090ef2b571f80.camel@loup-vaillant.fr> <A1765592-7AF7-4F3A-8B22-C5BD6C059A7C@akamai.com> <CAMm+LwjKV3xT_2StxzL4X3BCeTpvwJBMmFMLQUw66xhQNkDNZA@mail.gmail.com> <CADPMZDBh+tp1nmKz=F0+g2Ekes6aXSUDwT8x_RRLG1NN7UiuUQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBNuEViK0N0v1jn0ksU34AY9nFbQ3Af2TE7qP6Ng-hof0g@mail.gmail.com> <CADPMZDBT9sgfgx=GF0LVbQke_Zqx-Zt-QoThOje8UHWidwBv+g@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CADPMZDBT9sgfgx=GF0LVbQke_Zqx-Zt-QoThOje8UHWidwBv+g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 21:30:27 -0400
Message-ID: <CAFDDyk8dDwmXWrzoJNP1iePsM2d7rcm=662hG5sVvSkbJZMY_A@mail.gmail.com>
To: denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002adf105c0ea3635"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/G1mDzt80ESPH0JMXrV7EWXBQU1o>
Subject: Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: time commitment to fix *production* security bugs for BLS RFC v4?
X-BeenThere: cfrg@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Crypto Forum Research Group <cfrg.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cfrg/>
List-Post: <mailto:cfrg@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 01:30:52 -0000
Dear CFRG thread participants, Please take this conversation to a different medium if you wish to continue in this direction. Phillip Hallam-Baker's original question has been answered: BLS is useful in non-cryptocurrency applications and the BLS document is not relevant to proof-of-work systems. Further discussion of the topic of cryptocurrency is not relevant or useful here. Nick (for the Chairs) On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:04 PM denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > With all due respect, Eric: the world as we imagined it is literally > ending, and the future of liberal democracy is hanging by a thread. > > There are two paths from this fork: a widespread realization of what's > going on, or 1984-style totalitarianism. > > Those who want to continue business as usual are opting for 1984. > > Under 1984, this group has no meaning, and its rules have no meaning, > because no human value is being realized. Only control. > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 6:36 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > >> Denis, Phill, etc. >> >> Please take this discussion of this list. It is off-topic. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 4:19 PM denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> > As a human being living on a planet threatened by environmental >>> damage from CO2 emissions >>> >>> This is probably false. You believe it because you've been bombarded by >>> messages about it from manipulated media. You spend your time focusing on >>> your own work. You are doing your work honestly, so you trust that other >>> people are doing honest work as well. >>> >>> This is not the case. The anthropogenic climate change narrative is most >>> likely false. The world is not warming and does not face harm from CO2 >>> emissions. >>> >>> Who are the people who want you to believe the climate change narrative? >>> >>> - The IPCC, which is an agency similar to WHO and has a similar amount >>> of credibility (this is: none). ClimateGate emails have shown the IPCC to >>> be driven by ideology and to use dishonest science in pursuit of their >>> goals. Despite claims that subsequent studies have vindicated the research, >>> these studies were as limited as possible and made minimal findings. >>> >>> - Mass media, which are basically run by intelligence agencies and have >>> consolidated into about 6 corporations. Their narratives are not driven for >>> clicks, they are driven for control. If you observed the mass media >>> reaction to 9/11 and the universal support of the subsequent Iraq invasion, >>> you may know this. If you observed the mass media reaction to the >>> fraudulent November 2020 election, you know this. If you observed the mass >>> media reaction to Covid-19, the universal support for lockdowns that >>> achieve nothing except bankrupt the middle class on purpose, pointless >>> masks that do nothing but engender obedience, and outright malicious >>> censorship of vaccine side effects - then you know this. >>> >>> If you do not know these things, then all I can tell you that Dan >>> Kaminsky died a few days ago after a Pfizer vaccination, which he got on >>> purpose to "encourage others to get vaccinated" in his tweet on March 22. >>> The mass media are reporting his death as from complications from diabetes, >>> and playing down any relationship to the vaccines. Dan Kaminsky joins other >>> notable deaths that coincidentally came after Covid vaccines, including >>> boxer Marvin Hagler, baseball legend Hank Aaron, Larry King, rapper DMX, >>> and thousands of everyday people. The vaccine deaths are common enough that >>> I know some of the dead myself. I still don't know anyone who died from >>> Covid. >>> >>> The mass media are lying to you, and this is not by accident, it is on >>> purpose. They are lying about the election, about Covid, about vaccines, >>> and about climate change. >>> >>> - China has signed up to the Paris agreement, but its obligations do not >>> start until 2030. Until then, it is free to build coal power plants, which >>> it does with gusto. As far as China is concerned, "climate change" is a >>> great way to get the West to completely tank its manufacturing, so that we >>> can be dependent on China for all production. This allows them to take over >>> the West without firing a shot, a coup which they have almost completed in >>> Australia, Canada, Europe and now also the US. >>> >>> - There is a globalist elite that rules the Western world. We have now >>> seen conclusively that they control most corporations, media and government >>> agencies, have done so for decades, and they're not elected. These people >>> have more in common ideologically with China than they do with classical >>> liberal principles of the West. With the advent of the internet and social >>> media, their control over the narrative has slipped, and they must now rule >>> openly. The US constitution is being thrown away and the people are being >>> indoctrinated to accept more of a Chinese style of rule. >>> >>> Climate change is helpful here because it leads people to believe that >>> there is this worldwide crisis that must be solved, so if we empower the >>> globalists, we sacrifice "some" liberties but it's for the benefit of >>> saving the world. >>> >>> There is in fact no such climate catastrophe. There hasn't been since >>> 1989, when the UN predicted that "whole nations will be wiped out" if >>> radical measures aren't taken by the year 2000. >>> >>> That was 21 years ago, and still the world hasn't warmed. >>> >>> If you want to educate yourself on this, you'll need a few hours. >>> >>> I recommend this very entertaining lecture by Malaysian scientist Willie >>> Soon: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zrejG-WI3U&t=221s >>> >>> Judith Curry: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4AAN0H8MRg >>> >>> Christopher Monckton: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGqcweY1a3I >>> >>> ClimateGate emails - 10 years after (PDF): >>> >>> https://www.rossmckitrick.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/climategate.10yearsafter.pdf >>> >>> ClimateGate emails (PDF): >>> >>> http://www.lavoisier.com.au/articles/greenhouse-science/climate-change/climategate-emails.pdf >>> >>> If you believe in climate change, it is your civic duty to educate >>> yourself, because this is the overarching narrative that is pushing is into >>> a worldwide dystopia based on the Chinese model. >>> >>> Our work means nothing, our lives mean nothing if the world is allowed >>> to unfold like this. >>> >>> denis >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 12:29 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker < >>> phill@hallambaker.com> wrote: >>> >>>> As a human being living on a planet threatened by environmental damage >>>> from CO2 emissions, I am strongly opposed to any IETF work to support any >>>> form of purported 'cryptocurrency' that relies on any form of 'proof of >>>> work' or 'proof of waste'. >>>> >>>> The electricity requirements of cryptocurrencies have been larger than >>>> that of entire countries. This is an experiment that it is time to stop. >>>> >>>> I am entirely serious in this position. >>>> >>>> >>>> Besides the environmental issues, there is the fact that the >>>> crypto-currency community has consistently failed to establish any >>>> effective means of preventing the endemic frauds in their systems. >>>> Fraudulent exchanges regularly steal money from their customers. >>>> Applications developed by individuals with minimal expertise are used for >>>> transfers of vast quantities of fictional cash with no effective oversight >>>> and this results in further frauds. >>>> >>>> The cryptocurrency community has a long history of misrepresenting the >>>> engagement of parties with established reputations as endorsing their >>>> 'product'. And this presents real risk to the IETF when the least >>>> objectionable use of the product in question is to evade currency controls. >>>> Cryptocurrency became popular as a means of paying for illegal drugs and >>>> has since become the enabler for ransomware. >>>> >>>> The cryptocurrency world has no shortage of people who will trash >>>> anyone criticizing their activities as 'stupid', 'uninformed', 'need to do >>>> some research'. Fine, let them sort their own messes out. >>>> >>>> IETF should take no action that risks a headline 'IETF endorses >>>> cryptocurrency'. If the ransomware, child abuse and Ponzi scheme industries >>>> have a problem as a result of a bad technology decision, we should not lift >>>> a finger to save them. >>>> >>>> >>>> The only conversations I want to have on cryptocurrencies is with >>>> government regulators looking for ways to regulate these criminal >>>> facilitation enterprises out of existence as they previously did with >>>> eGold, Gold Age and BTC's very long line of predecessors which like BTC >>>> were entirely different but completely the same. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 10:57 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz= >>>> 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> > There may be one way: holding implementers accountable. >>>>> >>>>> > They relied on a draft. As such, they took a gamble. Now they >>>>> lost that >>>>> gamble, and gambling ethics dictates that they pay up. >>>>> >>>>> Yes. Strongly agree that this is the best approach. This is a >>>>> *DRAFT* It would be like implementing Rijndael and then complaining that >>>>> it has bugs and isn't AES. >>>>> >>>>> Contact the people who developed and put things into production. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> CFRG mailing list >>>>> CFRG@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> CFRG mailing list >>>> CFRG@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CFRG mailing list >>> CFRG@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg >>> >> _______________________________________________ > CFRG mailing list > CFRG@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg >
- [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *produc… Quan Thoi Minh Nguyen
- Re: [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *pr… Riad S. Wahby
- Re: [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *pr… Quan Thoi Minh Nguyen
- Re: [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *pr… Loup Vaillant-David
- Re: [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *pr… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *pr… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *pr… Quan Thoi Minh Nguyen
- [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: time… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Daniel Franke
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Kyle Rose
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Michael Sierchio
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Michael Sierchio
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Kyle Rose
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Michael Sierchio
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Thomas Dineen
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Thomas Dineen
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Thomas Dineen
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … denis bider
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … denis bider
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Soatok Dreamseeker
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … denis bider
- Re: [CFRG] Bitcoin delenda est. Was: Escalation: … Nick Sullivan
- Re: [CFRG] Escalation: time commitment to fix *pr… Jeff Burdges