[CFRG] CFRG does standards and that is a general problem. Was Re: OCB does not have an OID specified, that is a general problem
Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> Tue, 08 June 2021 16:37 UTC
Return-Path: <msj@nthpermutation.com>
X-Original-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B171C3A3661 for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 8 Jun 2021 09:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6TGDxADKze5H for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 8 Jun 2021 09:37:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56D593A360D for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Tue, 8 Jun 2021 09:37:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id g12so11088431qvx.12 for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Tue, 08 Jun 2021 09:37:15 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=ZdEed9JQcXcalhk3qbu35aaBJ+07BM1dxHTsE2b+Yh0=; b=cJSL2DocLZb2tuYXwyrVT80lWc6yzdpEtHksQDtalhstVun7F5a0KzIXGqOcVDhJCg MatusUWxRa/m/+0iJQXshq3m5aZnyVT/JcOkHS/qwh2lB4FwO7vPsyqDYRb1nH9y67yD mCdf2gFNBH78UzkVRtNDtsPLmoRdBu/iqXfIStTgEjN81ahrzfwUgIRrIP5TV6+gCebG CMEPS5hScUvvKYPlJmPFht2ran+gfr5005356wCsAqhg8kOf/7oSw69a62voMJWfCZR1 F/kfuen/T22US/ZJAP98BMGm4w4n1KIqgkOf9ksOZgBDGJnYJ2vA7EplK9nHew8n6pUY 77gA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=ZdEed9JQcXcalhk3qbu35aaBJ+07BM1dxHTsE2b+Yh0=; b=XqvAonvZFRC81Nv4rcCljgLsTlddM2qDODhArpJ5TVaQDOSnLg58jjV6AD98kv97bY +UUGNQCrDG1k3TNHry77qJbfbeiEZqI4wy8wSg+0f2LhZkAt3elV9sdrZdK09fmWdb86 /mDE6yPH811ApIceNreH9u1NkeJos0pw6bQdy8ZVttKc3bHV69jy6ATSsYaRtDSs6YTV llmc0i/RDqUkYl2CHNPXKBfwSImfoIly1UXNkw28LH18USx/0fiVAIpKXU5aJ8meq0Xh UkfRiLQKq7n7nqkdIkaiY9UMnOed1xdFBv9izg4KymHznfzaA4aHCIQaI1comsTvAie7 F9Mg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532j9f0A6VgixbzammFYEarJiUhFbhOD48TGUzEvVqy65R+8gZDr ujlkMDUIY3T8DGCCM6vAfODGsMouDWe/oS+f
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy8lW+6QmOZFOJUgzuSTBPWcwuLhu/mp2l7olEEkewTB4ic08x3a4vuxDMAMklgJha6Z8aKPQ==
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:45a6:: with SMTP id y6mr637740qvu.54.1623170233110; Tue, 08 Jun 2021 09:37:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p8sm6527280qkm.119.2021.06.08.09.37.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Jun 2021 09:37:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cfrg@irtf.org, IAB <iab@iab.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
References: <CAMm+Lwizfw6=T28gGOgeGZ=4CEHsQ5BoWcAt5mOWbyJHLVJmuQ@mail.gmail.com> <B73FB6B1-3EFC-4AEA-9A99-8C047F478944@akamai.com> <773badc5fdc04c41a5ceea7ad4fe29fe@cert.org>
From: Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com>
Message-ID: <d1788788-6478-3a33-b08a-c0189dc9acd6@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2021 12:37:10 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <773badc5fdc04c41a5ceea7ad4fe29fe@cert.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------11B95364C3FE5550C074CB65"
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/GafhFndIAsgeLNXuNZc9JAT09W8>
Subject: [CFRG] CFRG does standards and that is a general problem. Was Re: OCB does not have an OID specified, that is a general problem
X-BeenThere: cfrg@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Crypto Forum Research Group <cfrg.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cfrg/>
List-Post: <mailto:cfrg@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2021 16:37:29 -0000
On 6/7/2021 9:53 AM, Roman Danyliw wrote: > > * I would like to propose that in future assignment of relevant OIDs > and JOSE identifiers be considered a requirement for similar work. > If a spec for a symmetric mode isn't sufficiently specified to > enable interoperable implementation in CMS and JOSE, it is not > sufficiently specified to be an RFC. > > That’s a reasonable thing to ask for, and something that could be > caught by SECDIR or AD review. > > [Roman] Agreed in the general case for the IETF stream. For RFC7253, > this review would have been during IESG conflict review because that > document was IRTF stream (which doesn’t have an SECDIR review, AD > review or even an IESG ballot). > > Roman > This seems to be yet another reason why the CFRG should be a WG and not an RG. I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think by keeping the CFRG in the IRTF, we're actually hurting the IRTF. In the deep murky history of the IRTF, the organization was originally (post Kobe) meant to be a place for exploration of a lot of different points of view. The concept of a RG "adopting a draft" was pretty much anathema - the idea was for lots of competing ideas to make it through the publication filters after some peer review and thence on to the broader community for consideration within the protocol development community. It was not to come to a "consensus" on the one true way. It should be possible to go into a RG with an idea that meets the general theme and is at least plausible, without having to "win" a race of competing proposals, and come out of it with an RFC in much less than 2 years - even as an individual contributor. I'm not sure that's still possible. At this point, the IRTF is looking more and more like a more closed version of the IETF with many procedures mostly indistinguishable from the IETF. A number of RGs even have IANA actions for their documents and that suggests standards creation is bleeding into the IRTF in a way that will diminish the worth of the IRTF as a place for ideas rather than finished designs. In the instant discussion, OID assignment should be done using IETF procedures. And discussions on changes to IETF procedures are (or should be?) probably out of scope for an RG. Later, Mike
- [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, that i… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Roman Danyliw
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Richard Outerbridge
- Re: [CFRG] [saag] OCB does not have an OID specif… Russ Housley
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- [CFRG] CFRG does standards and that is a general … Michael StJohns
- Re: [CFRG] CFRG does standards and that is a gene… Colin Perkins
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] CFRG does standards and that is a gene… Michael StJohns
- Re: [CFRG] OCB does not have an OID specified, th… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [CFRG] CFRG does standards and that is a gene… Colin Perkins