Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 18 March 2019 03:11 UTC
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From: denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 22:11:06 -0500
Message-ID: <CADPMZDCaeN7iLuPgAe5gSQDvMRx6eGut6rqcAM7GQLWPwBFLPA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
Cc: Uri Blumenthal <uri@mit.edu>, CFRG <cfrg@irtf.org>, "RFC ISE (Adrian Farrel)" <rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org>, secdir <secdir@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
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> That's actually not what happens - new work on old > protocols has to go through the chartering process, > which is, in practice, more rigorous than rechartering > and tends, in my experience, to produce more focused > results. The IETF produces a pretty good number of > -bis documents and extensions through the working > group process. You are pointing out the lucky situations where that happens, I'm pointing out the unlucky ones where it doesn't. SSH is full of underdocumented, partly functional custom extensions (to cryptography, compression, SFTP, port forwarding, host key synchronization, VPN, and more), most of which *could* be better designed, better documented and standardized - if only there was a continuing forum and people did not have to go through this "rigorous" chartering process. You point out the handful of documents produced as a success. I point out a mountain of documents NOT produced, problems NOT solved, discussions NOT had as a failure. This same situation now arises in the context of CFRG, which would make sense as a permanent WG. But nope, that option has to not be available. On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 8:53 PM Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> wrote: > On 3/17/19 5:28 PM, denis bider wrote: > > When > > people want to introduce extensions, there's no longer anywhere to turn > > to. So development of extensions happens haphazardly, without > > discussion, without feedback, without coordination. > > That's actually not what happens - new work on old > protocols has to go through the chartering process, which > is, in practice, more rigorous than rechartering and tends, > in my experience, to produce more focused results. The > IETF produces a pretty good number of -bis documents and > extensions through the working group process. (Currently > we've got groups like lamps, curdle, kitten, and so on > updating old standards.) > > At any rate, I'd like to see CFRG remain where it is, in > part because of structural reasons but mostly because it's > been productive and useful and it's not clear that there's > any practical advantage to changing it to an IETF working > group, while there are several clear disadvantages (I think > that potentially removing incentives for participation by > academics is a huge deal, myself). > > Melinda > > -- > Melinda Shore > melinda.shore@gmail.com > > Software longa, hardware brevis >
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Andy Lutomirski
- [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts RFC ISE (Adrian Farrel)
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts David Wong
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Dan Brown
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts John Mattsson
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Aaron Zauner
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Ted Krovetz
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group?… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… John Mattsson
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Valery Smyslov
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Mathy Vanhoef
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… denis bider
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working gr… Martin Thomson
- [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter CFRG… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] dragonfly, was: Re: Time to recharter … Björn Haase
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts mcgrew
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Ted Krovetz
- Re: [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts Benjamin Kaduk