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From: Sharon Goldberg <sharon.goldbe@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:42:11 +0300
Message-ID: <CAJHGrrSh27DFzuGDmTD_GuBF7tCtNQsCJ42XTjZWO1LqqAm3wQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Thomas Garcia <tgarcia.3141@gmail.com>
Cc: Dan Brown <danibrown@blackberry.com>, "jan@ns1.com" <jan@ns1.com>, 
 "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org>, Dimitrios Papadopoulos <dipapado@umd.edu>,
 Leonid Reyzin <reyzin@cs.bu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Cfrg] draft-goldbe-vrf: Verifiable Random Functions
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Hi Thomas,

1. It seems that one of the properties that you are interested that the VRF
> will have is determinism. On the other hand, the EC-VRF value is dependen=
t
> on the choice of some random number k. How are these two facts compatible=
?
> Am I missing something?
>

We require determinism from the VRF hash output, which is obtained from the
VRF proof via the "proof2hash" function.

The EC-VRF proof has 3 values: gamma, c, s
Values c and s depends on the choice of random number k
But value gamma does not depend on k.

We get determinism because the VRF hash output (derived using "proof2hash")
depends only on gamma, but not on c and s.

Slide 28 from my CFRG presentations gives a pictorial explanation of this:
http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe/papers/VRF_ietf99_print.pdf

2. The value c calculated in EC-VRF is only 128 bits long for Ed25519. In
> normal usage of Ed25519 the signature uses the full length of the hash
> output. Doesn't this expose the signature to collision attacks?
>
> No. We worked this out in our proofs of security.  Section B.2.1 of this
paper explains why this works.

https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/099.pdf

Thanks,
Sharon



> Thank you for your comments. Indeed, VRFs have been around since 1999.
>> They are really "verifiable PRFs" but the name is by now standard in the
>> crypto literature, and changing it will cause more confusion than keepin=
g
>> it.
>>
>> In terms of the VRF's security properties, there are three:  uniqueness,
>> collision resistance, and pseudorandomness. These are defined in our dra=
ft (
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-goldbe-vrf-01#section-3).
>>
>> How VRFs prevent dictionary attacks: a public hash is subject to a
>> dictionary attack because, given the output, an adversary can evaluate t=
he
>> hash on different inputs and see what hits the outputs. In a VRF, the
>> adversary can't evaluate the hash on different inputs.
>>
>> You say it's not surprising that "random oracle model proof can prove th=
e
>> output of a hash to be random". But actually, the output of a hash is NO=
T
>> random if the input and the hash function are known. This is because the
>> output of a hash is deterministic (every input maps to a unique output).
>> That's exactly what enables dictionary attacks. This is in contrast to a
>> VRF, where the output is (pseudo)random even given knowledge of the inpu=
t.
>> Only once the VRF proof is given, does the VRF output stop looking rando=
m.
>> Note that random oracles are not essential for VRFs, and non-random-orac=
les
>> constructions exist (but are less efficient than what we propose to
>> standardize).
>>
>> As far as use cases, here are a few:
>>
>> In the NSEC5 use case for DNSSEC, you have sensitive data (domain names)
>> and you sign consecutive pairs of hashes of domain names in order to be
>> able to prove absence of a name. If you just use standard hashing, whene=
ver
>> signed hash values are disclosed, your sensitive data is subject to
>> dictionary attacks. VRFs solve that problem, and sensitive names don't h=
ave
>> to be disclosed at all. More details are in https://eprint.iacr.org/201
>> 7/099.pdf
>>
>> In CONIKS (also Google Key Transparency, Signal secure messaging, Yahoo!
>> Coname) you also have some sensitive data (user names) that are put into=
 a
>> Merkle-like authenticated data structure. If you just use standard hashi=
ng,
>> whenever hash values are disclosed, sensitive data is subject to diction=
ary
>> attacks. If you use VRFs, sensitive data again can be disclosed only on =
an
>> as-needed basis. More details are in  https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/
>> 1004.pdf.
>>
>> In a cryptocurrency use case, you wish perform a coin flip that is
>> deterministic and provably correct, but cannot be done by just anyone.
>> More details are in https://people.csail.mit.ed
>> u/nickolai/papers/gilad-algorand-eprint.pdf and possibly other
>> cryptocurrency papers.
>>
>> Bryan Ford mentioned an additional usecase at the mic on Tuesday:
>> distributed password protection protocols
>>
>> Many of these use case are already putting VRFs into production use (esp=
.
>> the CONIKS one).  You can see a list of the various implementations we h=
ave
>> found in the "implementation status" section of our draft.  One of the
>> reasons we think this spec is so important is that we found flaws in
>> several of the implementations that can be used to trivially break
>> uniqueness.  (See eg: https://github.com/google/
>> keytransparency/issues/567)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sharon
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Dan Brown <danibrown@blackberry.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Answering myself below: VRFs have been around since 1999, so are not so
>>> new.  =E2=80=8EStill don't like the name, and still have trouble seeing=
 the value.
>>>
>>> *From: *Dan Brown
>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:29 PM
>>> *To: *Sharon Goldberg; cfrg@irtf.org
>>> *Cc: *jan@ns1.com; Leonid Reyzin; Dimitrios Papadopoulos
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Cfrg] draft-goldbe-vrf: Verifiable Random Functions
>>>
>>> Hi Sharon and CFRG,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On VRFs, my uncertain comments to consider at your leisure:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it fair to say VRFs are relatively new?  If so, then maybe a little
>>> more caution is needed about their use.  It seems a tad hasty that it i=
s
>>> being used already.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To me, it seems that VRFs are basically signatures, with an extra
>>> feature.  My concern is that this extra feature might get overused, bef=
ore
>>> it is thoroughly reviewed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is unsurprising to me that random oracle model proof can prove the
>>> output of a hash to be random.  My intuitive concern is that at least
>>> informally, this is kind of circular.  Hashes often have some
>>> non-random-ish properties that might affect the extra security (over
>>> signatures) that VRFs are aiming for.  I guess I would much prefer a pr=
oof
>>> saying if the hash has (well-studied) properties XYZ, then your
>>> construction are VRFs.  (Maybe you have this already?  If so, then tell=
 me
>>> so.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Since, VRFs require sending the =E2=80=9Cproofs=E2=80=9D on the wire, I=
 find it hard to
>>> see how it could be used to prevent dictionary attacks.  I assume that =
you
>>> are saying the proofs must be encrypted when one needs to avoid diction=
ary
>>> models?  I suppose all the details are there in I-D and papers, but for
>>> now, I am confused about the threat model (which parties have keys, etc=
.,
>>> if they require a secure channel and mutual trust, why just use plain o=
ld
>>> hash,=E2=80=A6). To resist dictionary attacks, were already have PAKEs =
and
>>> PBHashing.  Now this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Finally, on a bikeshed-coloring note, I object to the name =E2=80=9Cver=
ifiable
>>> random function=E2=80=9D, on several grounds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    1. It is not a function.  It is at least four functions, keygen,
>>>    sign, verify, and hashify.
>>>    2. If you make it into a keyed function F_sk(m), as in
>>>    prooftohash(sign_sk(m)), it is not verifiable.
>>>    3. Verification requires the intermediate proof, which is certainly
>>>    not even pseudorandom (it is easy to distinguish valid signatures fr=
om
>>>    random).
>>>    4. It is pseudorandom, not random.  (The keys are random, but many
>>>    crypto has keys, without having =E2=80=9Crandom=E2=80=9D in its name=
: encryption, MAC,
>>>    signatures, key exchange, =E2=80=A6, they also don=E2=80=99t verifia=
ble or random in their
>>>    names either.)
>>>    5. The similar phrase =E2=80=9Cverifiably random=E2=80=9D, albeit as=
 a misnomer, has
>>>    past precedents, see NIST P-256 and Brainpool, etc.  When I see VRF,=
 I
>>>    think a function, that aims to VR in that sense, and great, now we c=
an
>>>    improve on Brainpool, etc.
>>>    6. =E2=80=9CRandom function=E2=80=9D should be reserved for the idea=
l random mapping
>>>    concept, for example, as studied by Flajolet-Odlyzko (ok they only s=
tudied
>>>    the case of equal size domain and range).  The random oracle model, =
is the
>>>    idea of approximating this ideal, etc.  An actual approximation shou=
ld not
>>>    be name as the ideal (sorry, I=E2=80=99m kind of repeating my point =
4).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please forgive the fact that my comments above are not very constructiv=
e
>>> (or if the tone is wrong).  This is a new topic for me, so I am relucta=
nt
>>> too many suggestions.  Nonetheless, I suggest (0) waiting a little, (1)=
 a
>>> non-random-oracle security proof (if you don=E2=80=99t have it yet), (2=
) re-naming
>>> the scheme to something like re-hashable (or digestible) signatures (an=
d
>>> re-name the various parts, i.e. proof -> signature, etc.).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Cfrg [mailto:cfrg-bounces@irtf.org] *On Behalf Of *Sharon
>>> Goldberg
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 12, 2017 5:42 AM
>>> *To:* cfrg@irtf.org
>>> *Cc:* jan@ns1.com; Dimitrios Papadopoulos <dipapado@umd.edu>; Leonid
>>> Reyzin <reyzin@cs.bu.edu>
>>> *Subject:* [Cfrg] draft-goldbe-vrf: Verifiable Random Functions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear CFRG,
>>>
>>> I'm presenting at next week's meeting on Verifiable Random Functions. A
>>> VRF is the public-key version of keyed cryptographic hash. Only the hol=
der
>>> of the VRF secret key can compute the hash, but anyone with the public =
key
>>> can verify it.  VRFs can be used to prevent dictionary attacks on
>>> hash-based data structures, and have applications to key transparency
>>> (CONIKS), DNSSEC (NSEC5), and cryptocurrencies (Algorand).
>>>
>>> In advance of the meeting, please see:
>>>
>>> 1) Our substantially updated -01 draft:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-goldbe-vrf/
>>>
>>> 2) Our project page, with links to various VRF implementations:
>>> https://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe/projects/vrf
>>>
>>> Comments welcome.  Thanks,
>>>
>>> Sharon
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sharon Goldberg
>>> Computer Science, Boston University
>>> http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Sharon Goldberg
>> Computer Science, Boston University
>> http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cfrg mailing list
>> Cfrg@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg
>>
>>
>


--=20
---
Sharon Goldberg
Computer Science, Boston University
http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe

--001a113ecb70bb7422055536f20c
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Thomas,<div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>1. It seems that one of the properties that you are inter=
ested that the VRF will have is determinism. On the other hand, the EC-VRF =
value is dependent on the choice of some random number k. How are these two=
 facts compatible? Am I missing something?</div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>We require determinism from the VRF hash output, which is obtai=
ned from the VRF proof via the &quot;proof2hash&quot; function.</div><div><=
br></div><div>The EC-VRF proof has 3 values: gamma, c, s</div><div>Values c=
 and s depends on the choice of random number k</div><div>But value gamma d=
oes not depend on k.</div><div><br></div><div>We get determinism because th=
e VRF hash output (derived using &quot;proof2hash&quot;) depends only on ga=
mma, but not on c and s.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Slide 28 from my CFRG p=
resentations gives a pictorial explanation of this:</div><div><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe/papers/VRF_ietf99_print.pdf">http://www.cs.bu.ed=
u/~goldbe/papers/VRF_ietf99_print.pdf</a><br></div><div><br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>2. The value=
 c calculated in EC-VRF is only 128 bits long for Ed25519. In normal usage =
of Ed25519 the signature uses the full length of the hash output. Doesn&#39=
;t this expose the signature to collision attacks?</div><div><br></div></di=
v></blockquote><div>No. We worked this out in our proofs of security.=C2=A0=
 Section B.2.1 of this paper explains why this works.</div><div><br></div><=
div><a href=3D"https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/099.pdf">https://eprint.iacr.or=
g/2017/099.pdf</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Sharon</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></div><div style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px">Thank you for your comments. Indeed, VRFs have been around since 1999=
. They are really &quot;verifiable PRFs&quot; but the name is by now standa=
rd in the crypto literature, and changing it will cause more confusion than=
 keeping it.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px">In terms of the VRF&#39;s security properties, there are t=
hree: =C2=A0uniqueness, collision resistance, and pseudorandomness. These a=
re defined in our draft (<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-goldbe-vrf-01#section-3" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raft-goldbe-vrf-01#section-3</a></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px">).<wbr>=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"font-siz=
e:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">How VRFs prevent dictio=
nary attacks: a public hash is subject to a dictionary attack because, give=
n the output, an adversary can evaluate the hash on different inputs and se=
e what hits the outputs. In a VRF, the adversary can&#39;t evaluate the has=
h on different inputs.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div=
><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">You say it&#39;s not surprising that &quot=
;random oracle model proof can prove the output of a hash to be random&quot=
;. But actually, the output of a hash is NOT random if the input and the ha=
sh function are known. This is because the output of a hash is deterministi=
c (every input maps to a unique output). That&#39;s exactly what enables di=
ctionary attacks. This is in contrast to a VRF, where the output is (pseudo=
)random even given knowledge of the input. Only once the VRF proof is given=
, does the VRF output stop looking random. Note that random oracles are not=
 essential for VRFs, and non-random-oracles constructions exist (but are le=
ss efficient than what we propose to standardize).</div><div style=3D"font-=
size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">As far as use cases,=
 here are a few:=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px">In the NSEC5 use case for DNSSEC, you have sensi=
tive data (domain names) and you sign consecutive pairs of hashes of domain=
 names in order to be able to prove absence of a name. If you just use stan=
dard hashing, whenever signed hash values are disclosed, your sensitive dat=
a is subject to dictionary attacks. VRFs solve that problem, and sensitive =
names don&#39;t have to be disclosed at all. More details are in=C2=A0<a hr=
ef=3D"https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/099.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://eprin=
t.iacr.org/201<wbr>7/099.pdf</a></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br><=
/div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">In CONIKS (also Google Key Transparenc=
y, Signal secure messaging, Yahoo! Coname) you also have some sensitive dat=
a (user names) that are put into a Merkle-like authenticated data structure=
. If you just use standard hashing, whenever hash values are disclosed, sen=
sitive data is subject to dictionary attacks. If you use VRFs, sensitive da=
ta again can be disclosed only on an as-needed basis. More details are in =
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/1004.pdf" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://eprint.iacr.org/2014/<wbr>1004.pdf</a>.</div><div style=3D"font-size=
:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">In a cryptocurrency use =
case, you wish perform a coin flip that is deterministic and provably corre=
ct, but cannot be done by just anyone.=C2=A0 More details are in=C2=A0<a hr=
ef=3D"https://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/gilad-algorand-eprint.pd=
f" target=3D"_blank">https://people.csail.mit.ed<wbr>u/nickolai/papers/gila=
d-algora<wbr>nd-eprint.pdf</a>=C2=A0and possibly other cryptocurrency paper=
s.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:1=
2.8px">Bryan Ford mentioned an additional usecase at the mic on Tuesday: di=
stributed password protection protocols</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px=
"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Many of these use case are alre=
ady putting VRFs into production use (esp. the CONIKS one).=C2=A0 You can s=
ee a list of the various implementations we have found in the &quot;impleme=
ntation status&quot; section of our draft.=C2=A0 One of the reasons we thin=
k this spec is so important is that we found flaws in several of the implem=
entations that can be used to trivially break uniqueness. =C2=A0(See eg:=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/google/keytransparency/issues/567" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/google/<wbr>keytransparency/issues/567</a>)<=
/div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8=
px"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Thanks,</span><br></div><div style=3D"=
font-size:12.8px">Sharon=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri=
, Jul 21, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Dan Brown <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:danibrown@blackberry.com" target=3D"_blank">danibrown@blackberry.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">




<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div style=3D"width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,&quot;Slate =
Pro&quot;,sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;bac=
kground-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Answering myself below: VRFs have been around since 1999, so are not so new=
. =C2=A0=E2=80=8EStill don&#39;t like the name, and still have trouble seei=
ng the value.</div>
<div style=3D"width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,&quot;Slate =
Pro&quot;,sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;bac=
kground-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,&quot;Slate Pro&quot;,sans-serif,sans-se=
rif;font-size:initial;line-height:initial;text-align:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<table width=3D"100%" style=3D"background-color:white">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td colspan=3D"2" style=3D"font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-=
color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;font-family:Tahoma,&quot;BB Alph=
a Sans&quot;,&quot;Slate Pro&quot;;font-size:10pt">
<div><b>From: </b>Dan Brown</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:29 PM</div>
<div><b>To: </b>Sharon Goldberg; <a href=3D"mailto:cfrg@irtf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">cfrg@irtf.org</a></div>
<div><b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:jan@ns1.com" target=3D"_blank">jan@ns1.co=
m</a>; Leonid Reyzin; Dimitrios Papadopoulos</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Cfrg] draft-goldbe-vrf: Verifiable Random Functio=
ns</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-615310173404414215=
5m_4165835283928257204gmail-h5">
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(186,188,209=
);border-top-width:1pt;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-colo=
r:rgb(255,255,255)">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-6153101734044142155m_4165835283=
928257204gmail-m_6358749242748202832WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Hi Sharon and CFRG,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">On VRFs, my uncertain comments to consider at your leisure:</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Is it fair to say VRFs are relatively new?=C2=A0 If so, then mayb=
e a little more caution is needed about their use.=C2=A0 It seems a tad has=
ty that it is being used already.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">To me, it seems that VRFs are basically signatures, with an extra=
 feature.=C2=A0 My concern is that this extra feature might get overused, b=
efore it is thoroughly reviewed.=C2=A0
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">It is unsurprising to me that random oracle model proof can prove=
 the output of a hash to be random.=C2=A0 My intuitive concern is that at l=
east informally, this is kind of circular.=C2=A0
 Hashes often have some non-random-ish properties that might affect the ext=
ra security (over signatures) that VRFs are aiming for.=C2=A0 I guess I wou=
ld much prefer a proof saying if the hash has (well-studied) properties XYZ=
, then your construction are VRFs.=C2=A0 (Maybe
 you have this already?=C2=A0 If so, then tell me so.)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Since, VRFs require sending the =E2=80=9Cproofs=E2=80=9D on the w=
ire, I find it hard to see how it could be used to prevent dictionary attac=
ks.=C2=A0 I assume that you are saying the proofs must
 be encrypted when one needs to avoid dictionary models?=C2=A0 I suppose al=
l the details are there in I-D and papers, but for now, I am confused about=
 the threat model (which parties have keys, etc., if they require a secure =
channel and mutual trust, why just use
 plain old hash,=E2=80=A6). To resist dictionary attacks, were already have=
 PAKEs and PBHashing.=C2=A0 Now this?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Finally, on a bikeshed-coloring note, I object to the name =E2=80=
=9Cverifiable random function=E2=80=9D, on several grounds.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-top:0in">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-6153101734044142155m_41658352839=
28257204gmail-m_6358749242748202832MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0=
in"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It is not=
 a function.=C2=A0 It is at least four functions, keygen, sign, verify, and=
 hashify.</span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-61531017340=
44142155m_4165835283928257204gmail-m_6358749242748202832MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">If you make it into a keyed function F_sk(m), as in prooftohash=
(sign_sk(m)), it is not verifiable.=C2=A0
</span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-6153101734044142155m=
_4165835283928257204gmail-m_6358749242748202832MsoListParagraph" style=3D"m=
argin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Verification requires the intermediate proof, which is certainly not eve=
n pseudorandom (it is easy to distinguish valid signatures from random).</s=
pan></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-6153101734044142155m_41=
65835283928257204gmail-m_6358749242748202832MsoListParagraph" style=3D"marg=
in-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
It is pseudorandom, not random.=C2=A0 (The keys are random, but many crypto=
 has keys, without having =E2=80=9Crandom=E2=80=9D in its name: encryption,=
 MAC, signatures,
 key exchange, =E2=80=A6, they also don=E2=80=99t verifiable or random in t=
heir names either.)</span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-6=
153101734044142155m_4165835283928257204gmail-m_6358749242748202832MsoListPa=
ragraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">The similar phrase =E2=80=9Cverifiably random=E2=80=
=9D, albeit as a misnomer, has past precedents, see NIST P-256 and Brainpoo=
l, etc.=C2=A0 When I see VRF, I think
 a function, that aims to VR in that sense, and great, now we can improve o=
n Brainpool, etc.</span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-615=
3101734044142155m_4165835283928257204gmail-m_6358749242748202832MsoListPara=
graph" style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">=E2=80=9CRandom function=E2=80=9D should be reserved fo=
r the ideal random mapping concept, for example, as studied by Flajolet-Odl=
yzko (ok they only studied
 the case of equal size domain and range).=C2=A0 The random oracle model, i=
s the idea of approximating this ideal, etc.=C2=A0 An actual approximation =
should not be name as the ideal (sorry, I=E2=80=99m kind of repeating my po=
int 4).</span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Please forgive the fact that my comments above are not very const=
ructive (or if the tone is wrong).=C2=A0 This is a new topic for me, so I a=
m reluctant too many suggestions.=C2=A0 Nonetheless,
 I suggest (0) waiting a little, (1) a non-random-oracle security proof (if=
 you don=E2=80=99t have it yet), (2) re-naming the scheme to something like=
 re-hashable (or digestible) signatures (and re-name the various parts, i.e=
. proof -&gt; signature, etc.).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Dan</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Cfrg [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cfrg-bounces@irtf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">cfrg-bounces@irtf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sharon Goldberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 12, 2017 5:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:cfrg@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">cfrg@irtf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:jan@ns1.com" target=3D"_blank">jan@ns1.com</a>=
; Dimitrios Papadopoulos &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dipapado@umd.edu" target=3D"=
_blank">dipapado@umd.edu</a>&gt;; Leonid Reyzin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:reyzi=
n@cs.bu.edu" target=3D"_blank">reyzin@cs.bu.edu</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Cfrg] draft-goldbe-vrf: Verifiable Random Functions</span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear CFRG,<br>
<br>
I&#39;m presenting at next week&#39;s meeting on Verifiable Random Function=
s. A VRF is the public-key version of keyed cryptographic hash. Only the ho=
lder of the VRF secret key can compute the hash, but anyone with the public=
 key can verify it.=C2=A0 VRFs can be used to
 prevent dictionary attacks on hash-based data structures, and have applica=
tions to key transparency (CONIKS), DNSSEC (NSEC5), and cryptocurrencies (A=
lgorand).<br>
<br>
In advance of the meeting, please see:<br>
<br>
1) Our substantially updated -01 draft:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-goldbe-vrf/" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-goldbe-vrf/</a><br>
<br>
2) Our project page, with links to various VRF implementations:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe/projects/vrf" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe/<wbr>projects/vrf</a><br>
<br>
Comments welcome.=C2=A0 Thanks,<br>
<br>
Sharon<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sharon Goldberg<br>
Computer Science, Boston University<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cs.bu=
.edu/~goldbe</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail-m_4922457647511857001m_-6153101734044142155m_4165835283=
928257204gmail_signature">---<span><br>Sharon Goldberg<br>Computer Science,=
 Boston University<br><a href=3D"http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe</a></span></div>
</div></div>
<br></div></div><span class=3D"gmail-">______________________________<wbr>_=
________________<br>
Cfrg mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Cfrg@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">Cfrg@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/cfrg</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature">---<br>Sharon Goldberg<br>Computer Science, Boston Uni=
versity<br><a href=3D"http://www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//www.cs.bu.edu/~goldbe</a></div>
</div></div>

--001a113ecb70bb7422055536f20c--

