Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-curve
Loup Vaillant-David <loup@loup-vaillant.fr> Sat, 10 April 2021 22:04 UTC
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From: Loup Vaillant-David <loup@loup-vaillant.fr>
To: "Hao, Feng" <Feng.Hao=40warwick.ac.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, Hugo Krawczyk <hugo@ee.technion.ac.il>
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 00:04:07 +0200
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Subject: Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-curve
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> Therefore, the best one can do is to hope map-to-curve never falls > into a small subgroup. But in that case, wouldn’t it better to > preclude small subgroup points from map-to-curve by design? Only if precluding those points is less risky than just hoping. And by a very wide margin, it's not. We have to choose between two risks: 1. The map-to-curve generates the identity point. The probability of that occurring is less than 2^-250 at each trial. Realistically, the probability that it occurs even *once* in the foreseeable future is well below 2^-128. Those numbers aren't just very low, they are *impossibly* low. I would stake my life and that of my entire family for a penny with those odds, and still sleep soundly at night. 2. The preclusion introduces a critical bug. The probability of *that* occurring is far from negligible. We can lower it, but we're only human. We make mistakes. We write bugs. Heck, I've even recently been made aware of a bug in a formally verified system (not telling more for obvious reasons). Ironically, I would perhaps *not* stake lives on the correctness of the present email, despite what I said above. I'm infinitely more likely to have made a mistake here than I am to flip 128 coins and having them all come up heads. The correct way to minimise risks in this case is to simplify specs and code as much as we can. Adding a check, especially one that you cannot test in a black box context, is infinitely riskier than gambling on 2^- 128 probability being close enough to "impossible". Thus, precluding small subgroup points by design is a bad idea. Don't. Loup.
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Squeamish Ossifrage
- [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-curve-10 Daira Hopwood
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Armando Faz
- Re: [CFRG] Closure (was Re: Small subgroup questi… Armando Faz
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Daira Hopwood
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Loup Vaillant-David
- Re: [CFRG] Closure (was Re: Small subgroup questi… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Closure (was Re: Small subgroup questi… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Soatok Dreamseeker
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Daira Hopwood
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] thoughts on clearing the cofactor in h… Loup Vaillant-David
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Riad S. Wahby
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Soatok Dreamseeker
- [CFRG] (suggested language re mixing square roots… Rene Struik
- Re: [CFRG] (suggested language re mixing square r… Daira Hopwood
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Michael StJohns
- Re: [CFRG] (suggested language re mixing square r… Rene Struik
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Loup Vaillant-David
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Michael Sierchio
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Daira Hopwood
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Christopher Wood
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … David Jacobson
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Julia Hesse
- [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf-cfr… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Loup Vaillant-David
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Russ Housley
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Richard Outerbridge
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Rene Struik
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… rsw
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Björn Haase
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Riad S. Wahby
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… rsw
- [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small subg… Rene Struik
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Scott Arciszewski
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Daniel Franke
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Dan Harkins
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … isis agora lovecruft
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Michael StJohns
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Henry de Valence
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Soatok Dreamseeker
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Daniel Franke
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Colin Perkins
- Re: [CFRG] please use real names (was: Re: Small … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Rene Struik
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Rene Struik
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Loup Vaillant-David
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Björn Haase
- [CFRG] Closure (was Re: Small subgroup question f… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Mike Hamburg
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… Hao, Feng
- Re: [CFRG] Small subgroup question for draft-irtf… rsw
- Re: [CFRG] Comment on draft-irtf-cfrg-hash-to-cur… Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev