[CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and Non-separable Hybrid Signature
John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com> Wed, 22 July 2026 22:13 UTC
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From: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>
To: "D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>, "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and Non-separable Hybrid Signature
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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2026 22:13:31 +0000
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Subject: [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and Non-separable Hybrid Signature
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I am happy that you are so interested in what I have to say, but this is quite clearly a misquotation. The full sentence I wrote was: "That actually seems compatible with the view that securing the randomness should be done by the application and not the algorithm.” (At the risk of repeating myself: not only are the mechanisms different, but the problems they are intended to address are different as well. If ML-KEM, like a signature scheme, had a message input containing entropy independent of the RNG, hashing the randomness m together with the message input would likely have provided protection against attacker-controlled RNGs.) Cheers, John Preuß Mattsson From: D. J. Bernstein <djb@cr.yp.to> Date: Wednesday, 22 July 2026 at 18:03 To: cfrg@irtf.org <cfrg@irtf.org> Subject: [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and Non-separable Hybrid Signature Sorry, I really don't understand how to reconcile the following two statements: (12 July 2026) "securing the randomness should be done by the application and not the algorithm"; (22 July 2026) "I strongly prefer hedged constructions. Purely random nonce generation has led to major vulnerabilities in the past, whether due to implementation errors or weak RNGs". ---D. J. Bernstein ===== NOTICES ===== IETF BCP 78, "Rights Contributors Provide to the IETF Trust", Section 5 (normative), "Rights in Contributions", provides a modification right "unless explicitly disallowed in the notices contained in a Contribution (in the form specified by the Legend Instructions)". The official language from IETF's "Legend Instructions" for the situation that "the Contributor does not wish to allow modifications nor to allow publication as an RFC" is as follows: "This document may not be modified, and derivative works of it may not be created, and it may not be published except as an Internet-Draft." <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrustee.ietf.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FCorrected-TLP-5.0-legal-provsions.pdf&data=05%7C02%7Cjohn.mattsson%40ericsson.com%7C80ddcf9c161d492fc41608dee80ad4d9%7C92e84cebfbfd47abbe52080c6b87953f%7C0%7C0%7C639203330382977298%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eU9rsd8XPQl2NxlfYt6ruFrQAQOBGoHNFPI4H0bXBrg%3D&reserved=0<https://trustee.ietf.org/wp-content/uploads/Corrected-TLP-5.0-legal-provsions.pdf>> The same language is used in, e.g., RFC 5831. The same language hereby applies to this document. This is not disclaiming or limiting the applicability of IETF policies; it is strictly following IETF policies. IESG claims that the "explicitly disallowed" provision in BCP 78 is limited to the examples in Section 3 in BCP 78. That is incorrect. BCP 78 states that Section 5, "Rights in Contributions", is normative, while Section 3, "Exposition of Why These Procedures Are the Way They Are", is informative. The opt-out provision in the normative text is clear, and cannot be limited by an informative section. BCP 78 does not give IESG any authority to issue changes or purported clarifications of the rules. Rationale for exercising the BCP 78 opt-out provision: I'm fine with redistribution of copies of this document. The issue is instead with modification, such as (1) IESG's May 2025 posting of an IESG-mangled version of an appeal that I had filed and (2) IETF management selling IETF mailing-list text to AI companies. This goes far beyond what copyright law allows as fair use (such as giving quotes for purposes of commentary). When I complained about the mangled document, the IETF Executive Director responded not by apologizing but instead by asserting that IETF management had the power to do whatever it wanted. _______________________________________________ CFRG mailing list -- cfrg@irtf.org To unsubscribe send an email to cfrg-leave@irtf.org
- [CFRG] Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and Non-s… DEVEVEY Julien
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Morgane Guerreau
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Simon Josefsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Simon Josefsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Neil Madden
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Sophie Schmieg
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Re: Silithium - A Compact, Efficient and N… Wang Guilin