Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box of Streebog and Kuznyechik
Dmitry Belyavsky <beldmit@gmail.com> Tue, 06 August 2019 14:20 UTC
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From: Dmitry Belyavsky <beldmit@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2019 17:20:08 +0300
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: "Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev" <smyshsv@gmail.com>, Leo Perrin <leo.perrin@inria.fr>, cfrg <cfrg@irtf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box of Streebog and Kuznyechik
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On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 5:13 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 06/08/2019 15:09, Dmitry Belyavsky wrote: > > Dear Stephen, > > > > RFC 7091 seems to be a translation of the corresponding GOST standard. > > > > RFC 8624 contains a reference to RFC5933, where the GOST algorithms for > > DNSSec were introduced. > > The reference is correct, the reference to the superseding algorithms is > > correct too. > > I'm not getting it. Why does 8624 need a normative > reference to 6986 and an informative reference to > 5933 when the code points refer to the algorithms > defined in 5933? > > S. > In fact, the reference to 5933 is normative (in part of DNSSec). Then we have reference to the superseding algorithms which personally I tend to treat as informative. It explains why the GOST algorithms have the status MUST NOT for signing/delegation. > > > > > So it seems that no errata required here. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 4:56 PM Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev < > smyshsv@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Dear Stephen, > >> > >>>> So that sounds like an erratum may be worthwhile for each of 8624 and > >> 7901? I guess the code points defined for DNSSEC are really for the old > >> algorithms and ought not point to the RFCs for the new ones? > >>>> And that hasn't really got anything to do with the meat of Leo's > >> findings - it's just that his work flagged up the erroneous references. > >> Personally, I agree that it would be good to do the updates here. But, > as > >> for DNSSEC, I hope that the authors of RFC 5933 (or, maybe, Dmitry > >> Belyavsky) can comment better. > >> > >> > >> > >> вт, 6 авг. 2019 г. в 16:33, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > >: > >> > >>> > >>> Hiya, > >>> > >>> On 06/08/2019 14:14, Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev wrote: > >>>> Stephen, GOST R 34.11-94 is built using a completely different > >>>> construction, so (Leo will correct me, if I am mistaken) the > discovered > >>>> properties are not related to GOST R 34.11-94. I’d also like to > clarify > >>>> that this GOST R 34.11-94 is an old hash function, which has been > >>>> deprecated for about 7 years in Russia. > >>> > >>> So that sounds like an erratum may be worthwhile > >>> for each of 8624 and 7901? I guess the code points > >>> defined for DNSSEC are really for the old algorithms > >>> and ought not point to the RFCs for the new ones? > >>> Those'd be valid errata I reckon, as it was a bit > >>> of a mistake (though entirely understandable) to > >>> refer to the new RFCs when the code points are for > >>> the old algorithms. Those errata would just say > >>> that the normative references to the new RFC were > >>> wrong and should've been to the old RFC. And that > >>> hasn't really got anything to do with the meat of > >>> Leo's findings - it's just that his work flagged > >>> up the erroneous references. > >>> > >>> As to whether to deprecate the algorithms due to > >>> Leo's findings, I agree that the existence of > >>> deployments that'd be affected needs to be taken > >>> into account in terms of the timing of when that > >>> might reasonably be done. And the fact that the > >>> algorithms in question are national standards is > >>> also a relevant point, though of course deprecating > >>> the RFCs has no formal effect on such national > >>> standards. > >>> > >>> Personally though, I think discovery of undeclared > >>> and unexplained structure such as this in a crypto > >>> algorithm ought be taken as a negative, even if there > >>> is no known attack at present, so I'd be for moving > >>> to deprecate when that is practical, in this case, > >>> as I would in any other similar case. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> S. > >>> > >> > > > -- SY, Dmitry Belyavsky
- [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box of St… Leo Perrin
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Jonathan Hoyland
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [Cfrg] On the (non-)randomness of the S-box o… Leo Perrin