Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG co-chair
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Fri, 10 January 2014 16:19 UTC
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:18:51 +0000
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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To: Trevor Perrin <trevp@trevp.net>
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Cc: Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org>, "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org>, David McGrew <mcgrew@cisco.com>, irtf-chair@irtf.org, IAB IAB <iab@iab.org>
Subject: Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG co-chair
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Trevor, Some responses below but I honestly think this exchange has otherwise run its course. On 01/10/2014 03:35 AM, Trevor Perrin wrote: > It's time > for our leadership to summon their courage and take a stand. Taking a stand sounds lovely, but ineffective. I prefer that we try to improve the Internet and harden it against pervasive monitoring. If you think the IETF hasn't been working on that then perhaps you need to pay more attention, for example, I didn't notice any comment from you on the IETF LC for [1], nor on the perpass list [2] since October, nor on the UTA list [3] nor have I seen a submission from you for the upcoming IAB/W3C workshop [4] on this topic that'll happen before IETF-89 (but you do still have time for that last so why not shoot one in:-). [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrell-perpass-attack [2] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perpass [3] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/uta/charters [4] https://www.w3.org/2014/strint/ Its entirely reasonable that you do none of the above and just focus on e.g. CFRG or TLS but its neither reasonable nor helpful to ignore everything else that's going on *and* make grandiose, calls for "taking a stand" such as the above. > I do think Kevin's removal should be a rebuke to the NSA. I think that would be an inappropriate action. IMO neither the IRTF nor IETF are the business of "rebuking" NSA or anyone else. Its fine that you disagree. >> Once you start to recognise affiliation in the way that is implied >> in the last part of your request, then you need processes that >> deal with the organisations and not the individuals and that very >> quickly tends to turn into a discussion about membership which >> then also quickly turns into one about paid membership and voting. >> You can believe me on this or not, but do bear in mind its far too >> boring an argument to want to deal with all the ins and outs;-) > > In what way have I "implied" recognizing affiliation, beyond common > sense? What new processes would we need to "deal with organizations"? > > Please explain. This is a major objection that's been raised to the > request. You can't just handwave that we need to believe you, or that > it's too "boring" to get into. > > If this is a serious objection it needs to be explained seriously. As I've said before, I do not believe Kevin's actions warrant replacing him as chair and therefore the only basis left on which he would be fired is purely his affiliation. Doing so would mean recognising participant affiliation in a new and quite damaging way. Again, its fine that you don't agree. Were the IRTF or IETF to do that for chairing in an automatic manner (e.g. "no NSA personnel are acceptable as chair") then to be consistent and fair we would have to start doing that for other cases too, e.g. when considering last calls, which leads quickly to voting, and membership. If you want an example of how that would go, please see e.g. the giant thread that starts at [5] and the even bigger discussion in the rtcweb working group. Or spend a bit of time reading the archives of IPR list [6] and you'll see how most kinds of increased recognition of affiliation lead towards membership. (And when you're done, then tell me its not boring:-) [5] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg84566.html [6] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipr-wg/current/maillist.html What is done now is that we trust other individuals to handle such matters, we do stuff openly allowing anyone who turns up on the list to have their say, we have appeal processes, and (in the IETF) recall and nomcom processes for leadership. In this case the IRTF chair handled your request, with a result with which I agreed and you disagreed, and the IAB will handle your appeal of that I guess, and I think that's the right thing to happen. S.
- [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG co-… Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Alyssa Rowan
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Trevor Perrin
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Adam Back
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Greg Rose
- Re: [Cfrg] [IAB] Response to the request to remov… Trevor Perrin
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… David McGrew
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Adam Back
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… John Viega
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Adam Back
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Trevor Perrin
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Trevor Perrin
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Trevor Perrin
- Re: [Cfrg] Response to the request to remove CFRG… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [IAB] Response to the request to remov… Trevor Perrin