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boundary="_000_LO2P123MB4927E0632FF8C7D5C2292188BCD0ALO2P123MB4927GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ncsc.gov.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P123MB4927.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6dfd0d4e-5861-4525-d71d-08dbcd77ded1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Oct 2023 12:11:32.5668 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 14aa5744-ece1-474e-a2d7-34f46dda64a1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OKmiClMwgVvkM7bOUfufh4g/dEPbgURej60ClsQD7ze+XMUIE2aLuUgmHOp2MPEWd3GcXTn/FjJGMmdlcW9jOg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO6P123MB6953 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [CFRG] Classic McEliece X-BeenThere: cfrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39 Precedence: list List-Id: Crypto Forum Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 12:11:47 -0000 --_000_LO2P123MB4927E0632FF8C7D5C2292188BCD0ALO2P123MB4927GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Almost the entire content of draft-josefsson-mceliece is taken verbatim fro= m the first working draft of ISO/IEC 18033-2/AMD2. There is a prominent co= pyright notice on the WD warning against reproducing any part of the docume= nt without prior written permission. The scheme may be owned by the Classi= c McEliece submission team, but the text of the WD is not. If the CRFG wants a specification to use as an alternative to an ISO standa= rd, this is not the way to go about it. Peter From: CFRG On Behalf Of John Mattsson Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2023 10:39 AM To: Simon Josefsson ; cfrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [CFRG] Classic McEliece Hi, I agree that Classic McElice should be standardized somewhere. There seems = to be significant interest in having a more conservative KEM than ML-KEM. E= ven if I personally think Curve25519+ML-KEM is conservative enough for most= use cases. ISO standards are paywalled which goes completely against the values of the= Internet community. I think ISO security standards are completely unusabl= e. Secret and paywalled algorithms should not be seen as acceptable anymore= . Paywalled algorithm standards means that much fewer security researchers = has access to them. This is both a security and a trust problem. There are = also many examples were implementations use publicly available material ins= tead of paywalled standards which creates both interoperability and securit= y problems. Now in 2023 there have been several court verdicts in the EU an= d US stating that all technical standards referenced by laws must be freely= available. I think cryptographers should boycott ISO. NIST said this week that they are planning to standardize 1-2 of the code-b= ased KEMs of which Classic McElice is one. The other two candidates are BIK= E and HQC. It therefore seems quite likely that NIST will standardize Class= ic McElice. I think CFRG should wait on NIST standardization. If NIST chose= s to standardize Classic McElice, I don't think a CFRG specification is nee= ded. If NIST choses to not standardize Classic McElice and a paywalled ISO stand= ard is the only reference, I think a CFRG specification is the way to go. Cheers, John From: CFRG on behalf of Simon Josefsson Date: Sunday, 15 October 2023 at 11:20 To: cfrg@ietf.org Subject: [CFRG] Classic McEliece Hi Here is a starting point to describe Classic McEliece as an IETF draft, based on the proposed Classic McEliece ISO draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-josefsson-mceliece All non-editorial feedback should preferrably go upstream to the Classic McEliece team, but you are welcome to give feedback in the issue tracker: https://gitlab.com/jas/ietf-mceliece /Simon --_000_LO2P123MB4927E0632FF8C7D5C2292188BCD0ALO2P123MB4927GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Almost the entire content of draft-josefsson-mceliece is taken verb= atim from the first working draft of ISO/IEC 18033-2/AMD2.  There is a= prominent copyright notice on the WD warning against reproducing any part of the document without prior written permiss= ion.  The scheme may be owned by the Classic McEliece submission team,= but the text of the WD is not.

 

If the CRFG wants a specification to use as an alternative to an IS= O standard, this is not the way to go about it.

 

Peter

 

F= rom: CFRG <cf= rg-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of John Mattsson
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2023 10:39 AM
To: Simon Josefsson <simon=3D40josefsson.org@dmarc.ietf.org>; = cfrg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CFRG] Classic McEliece

 

Hi,

 

I agree that Classic McElice should be standardized = somewhere. There seems to be significant interest in having a more conserva= tive KEM than ML-KEM. Even if I personally think Curve25519+ML-KEM is conservative enough for most use cases.

 

ISO standards are paywalled which goes completely ag= ainst the values of the Internet community.  I think ISO security stan= dards are completely unusable. Secret a= nd paywalled algorithms should not be seen as = acceptable anymore. Paywalled algorithm standards means that much fewer sec= urity researchers has access to them. This is both a security and a trust p= roblem. There are also many examples were implementations use publicly available material instead of paywalled = standards which creates both interoperability and security problems<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">. Now in 2= 023 there have been several court verdicts in the EU and US stating that al= l technical standards referenced by laws must be freely available. I think cryptographers should boycott ISO.


NIST said this week that they are planning to standardize 1-2 of the code-b= ased KEMs of which Classic McElice is one. The other two candidates are BIK= E and HQC. It therefore seems quite likely that NIST will standardize Class= ic McElice. I think CFRG should wait on NIST standardization. If NIST choses to standardize Classic McElic= e, I don’t think a CFRG specification is needed.

 

If NIST choses to not standardize Classic McElice an= d a paywalled ISO standard is the only reference, I think a CFRG specificat= ion is the way to go.

 

Cheers,

John

 

From: CFRG <cfrg-bounc= es@irtf.org> on behalf of Simon Josefsson <simon=3D40josefsson.org@dm= arc.ietf.org>
Date: Sunday, 15 October 2023 at 11:20
To: cfrg@ietf.org <cfrg@ietf.org>
Subject: [CFRG] Classic McEliece

Hi

Here is a starting point to describe Classic McEliece as an IETF draft,
based on the proposed Classic McEliece ISO draft:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/ht= ml/draft-josefsson-mceliece

All non-editorial feedback should preferrably go upstream to the Classic McEliece team, but you are welcome to give feedback in the issue
tracker: https://gitlab.com/jas/ietf-mceliece

/Simon

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