[CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid-kems-12 and draft-irtf-cfrg-concrete-hybrid-kems-04
"D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to> Sun, 12 July 2026 18:22 UTC
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Subject: [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid-kems-12 and draft-irtf-cfrg-concrete-hybrid-kems-04
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Muhammad Usama Sardar writes: > If there was no such CVE in the last decade after that, doesn't > that indicate that it was just a random one-time implementation bug? I didn't notice any followups addressing this question. Let me emphasize the engineering perspective. https://blog.cr.yp.to/20191024-eddsa.html says that "the Minerva team is claiming to break ECDSA in 4 or possibly 5 out of 13 crypto libraries supporting ECDSA, and EdDSA in 0 out of 9 crypto libraries supporting EdDSA. ... I'm not saying that it's impossible to implement EdDSA insecurely. Of course it's _possible_ to implement EdDSA insecurely. Maybe there are people using insecure EdDSA implementations today. But the Minerva data points support the theory that **EdDSA implementations are less likely to be broken than ECDSA implementations**. This isn't an accident: it's how EdDSA was designed in the first place." The question of whether software will end up vulnerable involves some effects that we can control in the cryptosystem design and some random effects. That's why ECDSA didn't _always_ end up vulnerable to Minerva. About 1/3 of the studied libraries were vulnerable. If we're designing a software-engineering process, then some of the random effects suddenly become controllable (e.g., whether the software is tested with valgrind), but there are still random effects (e.g., whether a programmer happens to make a particular mistake). Extrapolating from a single bug is of course statistically invalid. This is why risk assessment creates models of mechanisms by which bugs happen and then, recognizing the risk of mistakes in the models, tests those models against many data points. For example, it's common to model each bug as having a constant chance of being discovered each year (by, e.g., reviews). The data set in https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity22/presentation/alexopoulos shows an excellent fit to this across many years: vulnerabilities in well-known open-source projects have about a 20% chance each year of being discovered. For example, code that's 10 years old is roughly six times less risky than the same volume of code that's only 2 years old, simply because there's more time for its bugs to have been eliminated. Is bug discovery slower for closed-source projects? Or for projects that aren't as well known? How much is AI increasing the discovery rate of bugs? How much is it hurting by increasing the code volume and bug volume to begin with? Answering such questions by extrapolation from isolated data points is again statistically invalid. Understanding the evidence that's available regarding failure mechanisms and failure rates is what produces the advice that you find in books on software engineering. For example: Use more tests. Use tests more likely to catch bugs. Prefer smaller code. Prefer easier-to-test code. But note that sometimes these goals are in conflict---e.g., should more mature code be replaced by newer, smaller code? see https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ for one side of the neverending debate---and there's always the question of how to allocate human time. Starting from these general concepts, you can ask how ECC in particular can be designed to reduce risks: for example, how different choices in ECC specs allow smaller code. Smaller code is often in tension with faster code (see, e.g., libraries having Intel code and ARM code along with relatively simple portable code)---which is important: complaints about speed, whether justified or not, continually interfere with deployment of better security---but it turns out that some changes to ECC designs, such as using the Montgomery ladder and using a prime very close to a power of 2, make code simultaneously smaller _and_ faster. See https://blog.cr.yp.to/20140323-ecdsa.html for an introduction to the ECC design space in the case of signatures, and see https://cr.yp.to/papers.html#safecurves for much more material. Quite a few of the choices matter for the ECC+KEM context rather than being signature-specific. ---D. J. Bernstein ===== NOTICES ===== IETF BCP 78, "Rights Contributors Provide to the IETF Trust", Section 5 (normative), "Rights in Contributions", provides a modification right "unless explicitly disallowed in the notices contained in a Contribution (in the form specified by the Legend Instructions)". The official language from IETF's "Legend Instructions" for the situation that "the Contributor does not wish to allow modifications nor to allow publication as an RFC" is as follows: "This document may not be modified, and derivative works of it may not be created, and it may not be published except as an Internet-Draft." <https://trustee.ietf.org/wp-content/uploads/Corrected-TLP-5.0-legal-provsions.pdf> The same language is used in, e.g., RFC 5831. The same language hereby applies to this document. This is not disclaiming or limiting the applicability of IETF policies; it is strictly following IETF policies. IESG claims that the "explicitly disallowed" provision in BCP 78 is limited to the examples in Section 3 in BCP 78. That is incorrect. BCP 78 states that Section 5, "Rights in Contributions", is normative, while Section 3, "Exposition of Why These Procedures Are the Way They Are", is informative. The opt-out provision in the normative text is clear, and cannot be limited by an informative section. BCP 78 does not give IESG any authority to issue changes or purported clarifications of the rules. Rationale for exercising the BCP 78 opt-out provision: I'm fine with redistribution of copies of this document. The issue is instead with modification, such as (1) IESG's May 2025 posting of an IESG-mangled version of an appeal that I had filed and (2) IETF management selling IETF mailing-list text to AI companies. This goes far beyond what copyright law allows as fair use (such as giving quotes for purposes of commentary). When I complained about the mangled document, the IETF Executive Director responded not by apologizing but instead by asserting that IETF management had the power to do whatever it wanted.
- [CFRG] RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid-kem… Nick Sullivan
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Thom Wiggers
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Russ Housley
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Richard Barnes
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Richard Barnes
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Russ Housley
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Russ Housley
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Simon Josefsson
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Soatok Dreamseeker
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Richard Barnes
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Soatok Dreamseeker
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Soatok Dreamseeker
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Simon Josefsson
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Richard Barnes
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Martin Schanzenbach
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Peter Gutmann
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Salz, Rich
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Peter Gutmann
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Neil Madden
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… John Mattsson
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Wang Guilin
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Neil Madden
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Deirdre Connolly
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Wang Guilin
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Deirdre Connolly
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Deirdre Connolly
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Deirdre Connolly
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Deirdre Connolly
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Daniel Van Geest
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Rohan Mahy
- [CFRG] Re: RG Last Call on draft-irtf-cfrg-hybrid… Douglas Stebila