Re: [clue] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Thu, 27 September 2018 23:21 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 16:20:47 -0700
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To: pthatcher=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Cc: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, mmusic@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, clue@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org, RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [clue] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
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I agree with Peter. Chrome's implementation is already closer to 8445 than 5245, so I don't see any issues associated with snapping this cluster to 8445 (aside from the work involved). On that topic, note that JSEP will need a few more changes than just the addition of the 8445 reference and note; the examples will have to be updated, as will the logic regarding generation of offers and answers and their parsing (to deal with the new ice-option). These changes will be modest but probably will need to be done by the authors. On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 9:52 PM Peter Thatcher <pthatcher= 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > I'm late to the discussion, and reading through it, it seems that we have > a lot of back and forth without addressing Cullen's root issue. Let me see > if I understand Cullen's root issue correctly. I think it's something like: > > 1. Cisco has existing code that it wants to call "WebRTC 1.0 compliant" > without changing to be compliant with 8445. > > 2. Cisco has existing code that it wants to continue to interoperate with > endpoints, especially Chrome, even as they make changes to become 8445 > compliant. And they don't want to have to test against old and new > versions. > > Cullen, is that accurate? > > > > OK, so some of my thoughts: > > 1. I don't think there is any interop risk here at all related to > timings. If you're worried about the drop in minimum check interval going > from 20ms to 5ms, don't. Just because the spec allows for going that low > doesn't mean endpoints will. And if they do, they'll do it carefully. > Endpoints can and should still choose a value that works best regardless of > the min in the spec. For example, Chrome is still using an interval of > 48ms (we're not in a rush to lower it, but we have non-browser endpoints > that do go lower). And if we roll out a lower value, it will be via > experiments or opt-ins and carefully tracked to make sure connectivity > rates don't drop. If any problem were found in practice, it would be > quickly reverted. > > 2. I don't think there is any interop risk here related to nomination > either. > Chrome's default behavior has never been compliant to any spec anyway, and > it's never been an issue. And like with ping intervals, any changes to > implementations will be done slowly and carefully. > > 3. I don't think it really matters to major implementations what the > dependency graph looks like. Whether some point to 5245 and others to 8445 > or if all of them point to 8445, it doesn't matter, implementations will > behave the same either way. Chrome, for example will adjust timings as > works well in practice (perhaps someday to below 20ms interval) regardless > of which RFCs point to 8445 and which point to 5245. If interop issues > ever do come up, then they can be fixed. And that has nothing to do with > which RFCs point to 5245 and which point to 8445. > > 5. You're going to need to test against different versions of different > browser no matter what the RFC references are. ICE timings and nominations > seem like the least of your testing problems. But on the flip side, Chrome > (and I assume other browsers) have been very slow and careful when making > changes to the ICE code. > > 6. FlexICE should go a long way to putting the web app in control of the > ICE behavior. So if you are worried about what browsers will do with ICE, > I suggest supporting the FlexICE effort. In fact, it's the result of your > proposal at TPAC in 2017 for wanting to have lower-level of control of > ICE.. If we get that into all the browsers, you won't have to worry any > more about any of this because you'll be in control (assuming you control > the web app). > > Altogether, I don't see any reason to not reference 8445 everywhere, at > least not any related to interop risk and web browsers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:37 AM Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote: > >> >> On Sep 7, 2018, at 1:25 AM, Christer Holmberg < >> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >> > Cisco has implemented stuff that is WebRTC 1.0 compliant without this >> change. These gratuitous changes, years after the implementation were >> coded, with no real benefit will ensure that we are not >> > and will not become compliant with the RFC. It's unlikely we will >> upgrade to the new ICE until it has real befits. >> >> The main reason we did 8445 was because people had identified issues with >> 5245. The work was driven mostly by the WebRTC community, including >> yourself and the Chrome people (or, at least the Google people), and one of >> the reason it took time to finalize 8445 was because you (among others) >> wanted to make sure we get things right (by making network measurements >> etc). Are you now saying all those changes bring no benefit? Did we all >> waste our time? >> >> >> Our testing, which we do not share, dig not indicate an improvement of >> connectivity rates. I did not see results from others that did. Some of the >> early test results from others that drove this work were not reproducible >> in our testing. The one thing I think most people did find is that the more >> out of sync the pacing of the two agents was, the worse the connectivity >> was. But all of this is water under the bridge, we have old and new ice, >> people can use either. What we are talking about here is what is the >> minimum bar for WebRTC 1.0 >> >> >> > It is doubtful Justin will want to implement the 8445 mechanisms of >> supporting both new and old ICE. Instead, we will move to say "works >> with Browser X version Y or later." We have watched at W3C as it moved to >> be that unless chrome does it, it rare that it becomes a standard. >> > Right here I am watching how the stuff IETF defines will be less >> relevant than the issue of what chrome implements. >> >> What exactly would Justin have to change? >> >> >> >> For us, the largest part is having to test for both old and new - it’s >> not easy to do good automated testing for ICE. >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >
- Re: [clue] [Ice] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [clue] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Roni Even (A)
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Roni Even (A)
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Roni Even (A)
- Re: [clue] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Cullen Jennings
- Re: [clue] [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Bernard Aboba
- Re: [clue] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [clue] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] [MMUSIC] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [clue] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Cullen Jennings
- Re: [clue] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] [MMUSIC] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [clue] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster … Nils Ohlmeier
- Re: [clue] [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Nils Ohlmeier
- Re: [clue] [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cl… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [clue] [MMUSIC] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [clue] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Justin Uberti
- Re: [clue] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Adam Roach
- Re: [clue] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [clue] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Justin Uberti
- Re: [clue] [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [clue] [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE… Christer Holmberg