Re: [codec] [asterisk-dev] Opus and VP8

Well, Asterisk does SIP and that has way more IPR on it than Opus, so uh, I guess you will need to decide if you think some random claim on IETF web site is a valid concern or not. Good luck. Note that blocking all forward progress on asterisk by filing claims on an IETF web page is also a risk to the project. 

(Oh, and TLS has lots of IPR too) 

PS - every effort possible has been made to ensure that Opus is GPL compatible. 

On May 30, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Olle E. Johansson <oej@edvina.net> wrote:

> Please comment on this statement about Opus from Matt Jordan, the 
> project leader for the Asterisk project.
> 
> Regards,
> /Olle
> 
> Vidarebefordrat brev:
> 
>> Från: Matthew Jordan <mjordan@digium.com>
>> Ämne: Re: [asterisk-dev] Opus and VP8
>> Datum: 29 maj 2013 20:55:58 CEST
>> Till: asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com
>> Svara till: Asterisk Developers Mailing List <asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com>
>> 
>> On 05/25/2013 05:19 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Olle E. Johansson <oej@edvina.net>
>>> Reply-to: Asterisk Developers Mailing List
>>> <asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com>
>>> To: Asterisk Developers Mailing List <asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com>
>>> Cc: Olle E. Johansson <oej@edvina.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Opus and VP8
>>> Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 13:26:29 +0200
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 24 maj 2013 kl. 12:51 skrev Lorenzo Miniero <lminiero@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>>> PS: a few months ago I also talked, on the #asterisk-dev IRC, about
>>>> the support I added for both Opus (transcoding) and VP8 (passthrough)
>>>> in Asterisk, codecs that are currently the default ones used in
>>>> WebRTC. I checked whether there was an interest in a patch for them,
>>>> but at the time there were some concerns about the copyright status of
>>>> Opus that prevented it to be considered for integration in Asterisk.
>>>> Has this situation changed in the meanwhile? I can open a separate
>>>> thread for this if needed.
>>>> 
>>> Lorenzo,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Good seeing you here!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Due to legal issues I don't think Digium can accept a contribution of
>>> Opus and VP8 in the svn repositories today.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I would encourage you, if you have these patches, to publish them on a
>>> web site like github or sourceforge so w all can help you test it. I
>>> really would like for these to be available for the community in an easy
>>> form.
>>> 
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>> Hello! I'm going to comment here specifically to clarify Digium's
>> position on Opus and VP8 as codecs and their inclusion in Asterisk.
>> 
>> To start, pass through support in the form of a format module is fine
>> for both Opus and VP8. It involves no transcoding and hence cannot
>> violate any claims against their technology. We'd be happy to see format
>> modules in Asterisk.
>> 
>> VP8 is the easier of the two to clarify. A codec for VP8 is probably not
>> appropriate, regardless of any patent or IPR issues. Asterisk doesn't
>> perform video transcoding. Video transcoding is an intensive operation
>> that performs poorly without hardware augmentation. We've always taken
>> the stance that software video transcoding in Asterisk would cause more
>> problems then it would solve; as such, VP8 as a codec is best left
>> outside of Asterisk.
>> 
>> The real question is: what about Opus?
>> 
>> Before that, a word about the American patent system.
>> 
>> The American patent system has devolved into what can only be charitably
>> described as mafia-inspired extortion. Non-practicing entities (NPEs)
>> are groups of lawyers who have not and never will produce, market, or
>> sell a product. The only actions they perform are filing infringement
>> claims against businesses and individuals, regardless of whether or not
>> that business or individual actually violates a patent, with the sole
>> purpose of extracting as much money out of said business or individual
>> as they can. The cost of fighting these claims is enormous. The cost of
>> losing a fight against even one of these claims is crippling. The NPEs
>> know this. Technical merit, logic, rationale, or any kind of morality
>> has no applicability here: these folks exist solely to find new and more
>> creative ways to make claims against you and take your money.
>> 
>> They'd be happy to put you out of business in the process.
>> 
>> Back to Opus.
>> 
>> There are several IPRs filed against Opus with the unfortunate licensing
>> declaration of "Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory License to All
>> Implementers with Possible Royalty/Fee." These IPRs have not been
>> clarified, and the entities making these claims have not moved one way
>> or the other regarding their claims. If any one of these entities
>> decides to play the NPE game (see: Alcatel-Lucent), they could crush
>> Digium like a bug. They could go after every user, integrator, and
>> developer of Asterisk as well. It has the potential of spelling the end
>> of the Asterisk project. The risk of this unfortunately does not justify
>> the inclusion of Opus as a codec in Asterisk.
>> 
>> Question: I am a user, integrator, and developer of Asterisk that does
>> not work for Digium. Since Digium holds the copyright of Asterisk, how
>> am I at risk?
>> 
>> Answer: I have no idea. I do know that logic and reasoning does not
>> apply where patents are concerned. Caveat emptor.
>> 
>> Question: Asterisk is an open source project. Doesn't that protect me
>> somehow?
>> 
>> Answer: No. The GPLv2 specifically states "that any patent must be
>> licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all". There are
>> additional sections that further explain how patents affect software
>> licensed under GPLv2; suffice to say that the sections exist to protect
>> the freedom of the software; not to protect you from patent trolls.
>> 
>> Question: If all of this is true, why does Google, Mozilla, Xiph.org,
>> and others implement Opus?
>> 
>> Answer: They either have an army of lawyers, are willing to roll the
>> dice on their future, or are ignorant of how the patent system works.
>> 
>> Question: This is messed up. If all of this is true, how can we ever
>> innovate in areas where patents have ever been filed?
>> 
>> Answer: You can't. The system is broken.
>> 
>> Question: What can I do about it?
>> 
>> Answer: Contact your government officials. Complain. The only way this
>> situation will get fixed is if the laws are changed. Note that there is
>> at least one bill being brought up in the U.S. Senate to address these
>> exact deficiencies in the American patent system (and possibly more in
>> the House); if you are a U.S. citizen I highly recommend you contact
>> your elected Senators/Representatives and express your opinion(s).
>> 
>> I hope this helps everyone understand why we've made our decision. We
>> all hope that this situation changes in the near future, but until then,
>> we'll have to limit our support of these codecs in Asterisk to
>> pass-through only.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Matt
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matthew Jordan
>> Digium, Inc. | Engineering Manager
>> 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA
>> Check us out at: http://digium.com & http://asterisk.org
>> 
> 
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