Re: [codec] #16: Delay factor: algorithmic delay vs. transmission latency.
stephen botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com> Sun, 16 May 2010 23:08 UTC
Return-Path: <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: codec@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: codec@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6283A6B5B for <codec@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 16 May 2010 16:08:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.506
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.322, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3BKzbJGksVc0 for <codec@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 16 May 2010 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7F73A6B58 for <codec@ietf.org>; Sun, 16 May 2010 16:08:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42so2197810wyb.31 for <codec@ietf.org>; Sun, 16 May 2010 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yUYVbu+uCRg2J19RytTc0GQF8EksgabKRTq99q6imJ4=; b=LLJD084NT7dhXeB93oYS8NgN+t74JzOra2tgRw7+xC/D1E7XdsAHfgM5pdk/9CH+ly v9xDywBBTLUflIvtQoQbq33ROK3z3lp0DbtgNXXf/vZf6iN46mcrAz1Z7VsOZxBaoFY+ /m1aSlxk8pQw2AcdgsSYCcOeEhYCcu3X537Hs=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=ov3125IVQ4pUyB6YyEysjoqPknzQb9mfOFnUzosHcKNgkWKrlzP4I3MrM+6ESqyAtZ ZyMYZtfFeuCl9Hk2YXs+znxD9RvJKzeCcuNw0vhjajwOQ7oZn90B/phCSxsE57upnnkW tUZY2S2tNOF8ROz42WfhQIizWq/Iwyl/xHd5E=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.216.158.65 with SMTP id p43mr2646989wek.50.1274051324067; Sun, 16 May 2010 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.216.23.5 with HTTP; Sun, 16 May 2010 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <000301caf4d6$13e824c0$3bb86e40$@de>
References: <062.7439ee5d5fd36480e73548f37cb10207@tools.ietf.org> <4BD11C50.2020206@usherbrooke.ca> <CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C74AB3F4A270@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <12151537-165D-426A-B71F-8B3D76BE4854@cisco.com> <CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C74B901372FE@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <20100430230756.13687lc1s5o89gsc@mail.skype.net> <CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C74B90345522@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C74B9043D30B@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <20100516012830.989257nt8p7l2p4e@mail.skype.net> <000301caf4d6$13e824c0$3bb86e40$@de>
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:08:44 -0400
Message-ID: <AANLkTimU5ESeDCNpozoZ6qI1Mw0E9Vhj9ZVXAK2oRXl8@mail.gmail.com>
From: stephen botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0016367fb7d998bef60486be30a8"
Cc: codec@ietf.org, frank.kettler@head-acoustics.de
Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Delay factor: algorithmic delay vs. transmission latency.
X-BeenThere: codec@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Codec WG <codec.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec>, <mailto:codec-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/codec>
List-Post: <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:codec-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec>, <mailto:codec-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 23:08:59 -0000
>>> Thus, the algorithmic delay was 20ms for G.711 (plus an unknown delay of PLC) and 25ms for G.729. >>> I am not sure what you are calling "algorithmic delay". Generally it is the delay inherent to the algorithm (the delay you would get if you had an infinitely fast processor). Total algorithmic delay for G.711 should be no more than .125 ms, total algorithmic delay for G.729 is 20 ms (15 ms per frame and 5 ms look-ahead). References are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.711 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.729 Regards, Stephen Botzko On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:59 AM, Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>wrote: > Hi, > > some recent studies on the speech quality of gateways and IP phones are > present in > > http://www.head-acoustics.de/telecomfiles/5th_ETSI_SQTE_Anonymous_Test_Report.doc > Please have a look at the document first... > > At the first glance, I did see evidence for the 3x factor for IP gateways. > The best in class at a 40.4 ms one-way delay for G.711 > (20ms packets) and a 54.3 ms delay for G.729 (20ms packets) referring to > Tables 4.1 and 4.2. The algorithmic delay of G.729 is 15ms > (5ms lookahead). Thus, the algorithmic delay was 20ms for G.711 (plus an > unknown delay of PLC) and 25ms for G.729. Thus, a factor > of 3 seems to be valid (5msx2,9=53,3-40,4) > > In case of IP phones it is not that clear. Actually, I did not fully > understand the document. That is 2N and 8N application force? > > I bet the experts from HEAD acoustic could bring some light into this > discussion and explain, whether they have seen something like > a 3x factor between the algorithmic delay and the final latency. > > For, we could officially send a liaison statement to ETSI asking for more > data. > > With best regards, > > Christian > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene > Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of Tübingen > Sand 13, 72076 Tübingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 > http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Koen Vos > >Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:29 AM > >To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen > >Cc: codec@ietf.org > >Subject: Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? > > > >Quoting "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen": > > > >> I didn't come up with this 3*(codec frame size) delay number for IP > >> phones myself. A very senior technical lead in Broadcom's IP phone > >> chips group told me that > > > >Still: > >- You've presented no satisfactory explanation for your theory > >- Nor any verifiable empirical evidence > >- It comes from an anonymous source > >- It has changed over time (going from 5x to 3x) > >- It goes against accepted wisdom > > > >So I'd say the burden of proof is on you.. > > > >koen. > >_______________________________________________ > >codec mailing list > >codec@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >
- [codec] #16: Multicast? codec issue tracker
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Colin Perkins
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Colin Perkins
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Colin Perkins
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? (Bluetooth) Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? (Bluetooth) Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? (Bluetooth) stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? (USB) Roni Even
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? codec issue tracker
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? (Bluetooth) Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #19: How large is the frame size depe… Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #19: How large is the frame size depe… stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #19: How large is the frame size depe… Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? (Bluetooth) Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Ben Schwartz
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Brian Rosen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. Ben Schwartz
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. Ben Schwartz
- Re: [codec] #20: Computational complexity? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. jari.hagqvist
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. Ben Schwartz
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] Thresholds and delay. Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Delay factor: algorithmic delay … Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Delay factor: algorithmic delay … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [codec] #16: Delay factor: algorithmic delay … Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] #16: Delay factor: algorithmic delay … stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Sandy (Alexander) MacInnis
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] #16: Multicast? Cullen Jennings
- [codec] Suggested summary... Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Herve Taddei
- Re: [codec] Suggested summary... Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen