Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a working group item
Erik Norvell <erik.norvell@ericsson.com> Fri, 09 September 2011 09:25 UTC
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From: Erik Norvell <erik.norvell@ericsson.com>
To: Ron <ron@debian.org>, "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 11:27:00 +0200
Thread-Topic: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a working group item
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Subject: Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a working group item
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Hi all, I support excluding sections 2 and 3 from the document. Not because they are old, but because the codec has changed since the tests were conducted and the results cannot represent the Opus performance. I agree the document should only contain tests considered meaningful and valid to this WG and removing these sections would increase the quality of the document. Best regards, Erik > -----Original Message----- > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Ron > Sent: den 9 september 2011 00:29 > To: codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a > working group item > > On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:54:27AM +0000, Anisse Taleb wrote: > > If I recall right, there was a consensus at the meeting in > Quebec that > > this document will be assigned to Christian as editor and that work > > will progress into making this document as good and as complete as > > possible. Thus, IMHO, the document is a good starting point for > > further editing. When it comes to the contents of the document, I > > think what the industry would like to see is a full > characterization > > of the Opus codec and its features as an internet codec > which is a core objective of this work. > > I missed being (tele)present for the Quebec meeting, so I > can't comment on what was agreed there, but I agree this > document seems like a good starting point for a WG item, that > should be added to as further test results become available > which are accepted by the group as being meaningful and valid. > > > On the other hand, tests performed prior to the adoption > (or freeze) > > of the codec do not offer much in terms of characterization > since they > > relate to a earlier version of the codec and will not accurately > > reflect the performance of the codec. > > I don't think they are being misrepresented as such though, do you? > For CELT at least, the versions of the codec that were tested > are still available, and documenting these tests provides > useful historical context for people who may wish to repeat > similar tests on the final codec and gauge the level of > improvement that has been made since this group began its > work on them. > > > In summary, section 2) and 3) should be removed > > ... so I disagree with this as a blanket statement if your > only reasoning is "this documents history, not the present". > > I think possibly the SILK tests could be clarified to > identify exactly which version of SILK was used for them. > And if you have reason to doubt the validity of individual > tests for reasons other than "they are old", then that should > be considered. But otherwise, I think these sections provide > useful historical information of both the improvements that > were made and the process of testing that guided them, and > that the value and transparency of this document would not be > improved by removing them. > > One of the aims of this group was to demonstrate the benefits > of using an open and evolutionary methodology to create > something better than could be achieved by a "develop behind > closed doors, winner takes all shootout" process. I think > documenting the history of testing, and the results that were > seen, is a valuable part of describing that process and its > results for the people who will come after us, and that > simply discarding it now that it has already been compiled > would only do them a disservice. > > I don't think this is inconsistent with the desire that you > say was expressed in Quebec for it to be "as good and > complete as possible". > Discarding these sections would only make it less complete, > without actually making it better in any way. > > But, that said ... > > > and the focus shifted towards a more detailed section 4). > > ... I agree there isn't a lot to be gained by bikeshedding > over these old tests now, unless there are serious concerns > about the validity of the process they employed, that would > make them bad examples to follow, for people who wished to do > later testing. > > The focus of future editing should mainly be on the relevance > and validity of any new tests that people wish to add to it > as they come. > > I completely agree that it's highly desirable for us to avoid > misleading "the industry" about the characteristics of the > final RFC defined codec, so results should only be added > there after WG scrutiny and consensus. > > Cheers, > Ron > > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >
- [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a work… Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Bernhard.Feiten
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Ralph Giles
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Ron
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Dr. Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Erik Norvell
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [codec] Adopt draft-valin-codec-results as a … Jonathan Rosenberg