Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements and testing
Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org> Thu, 07 April 2011 20:44 UTC
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Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 13:46:23 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: Monty Montgomery <xiphmont@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements and testing
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements and testing
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Let me try to be more precise (and, unfortunately, more verbose). The context of my statement, and yours (I believe) is the possible testing of opus against other codecs. Some of us believe that the selection of the codecs tested against opus ought to be independent from their licensing scheme. My understanding is that you (and others) advocate testing should focus on codecs known or believed as royalty free. I don't agree with this, but let's assume it anyway in a thought experiment: let's test only codecs with comparable licensing schemes. There are some codecs that are believed to be out of patent (1), others are believed to be RF because the known rightholders (based on disclosures received in the IETF, ITU, or elsewhere) have stated in public that they do not demand royalties (2). Still others never have received formal standardization in an organization with a disclosure obligation, so one cannot be as confident about their encumbrance or lack thereof; but there may be statements from the lead development organization that they are not aware of patents not available under RF terms (3). The assorted open source codecs and Silk appear to belong into this category. According to Qualcomm, they will make six patents they believe read on opus under terms that are not necessarily royalty free ("with possibly royalty/fee"). Therefore, opus does not fit any of the three categories mentioned above. Regardless of the intentions of the proponents here, at this point opus v5 cannot reasonably perceived to be royalty free. The net result appears to me to be that requiring opus v5 to be tested against only RF technologies seems unfair, as it tests technologies believed to be RF (with all the technology drawbacks that may include) against a technology that has six granted US patents (and a number of international counterparts) disclosed against it, all of which may not be available under RF terms. So try your design around, hope that Qualcomm is amicable to submit an updated disclosure against your (hopefully clean) solution, and only then propose to test only against RF technologies. Before that, compete fairly. Stephan On 4.7.2011 13:11 , "Monty Montgomery" <xiphmont@gmail.com> wrote: >On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org> wrote: >> At this point, there is no indication that opus is going to be royalty >> free. > >Those most concerned with delivering royalty free status would appear to >be >no more concerned than at any earlier point in the process. > >> In fact, there is evidence to the contrary: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1520/ > >How so? This is evidence that things are working properly and as hoped >(and kudos to Qualcomm for acting in spirit). > >With patent numbers of concern in hand, we can make certain those >patents either do not read on a final standard or are freely >licensed if used. IPR declarations greatly enhance the certainty >of the project, they do not detract. > >Monty >Xiph.Org
- [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements and … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roni Even
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jan Skoglund
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Erik Norvell
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Monty Montgomery
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Monty Montgomery
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roni Even
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Kavan Seggie
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roni Even
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roni Even
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Roni Even
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Kat Walsh
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stefan Hacker
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Paul Coverdale
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Serge Smirnoff
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Ron
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Stephen Botzko
- Re: [codec] A concrete proposal for requirements … Anisse Taleb
- [codec] Chairs and consensus Cullen Jennings