Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements
stephen botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com> Fri, 02 April 2010 20:56 UTC
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From: stephen botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements
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Its my understanding that several other standardized codecs have had requirements like this one (and have somehow been tested). I agree that we will need a more precise and testable statement, and a corresponding test method. Though that will be true for *every* requirement we agree upon in this phase. Stephen Botzko On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote: > I have a feeling that this requirement as it stands right now is > non-enforceable since there is no industry accepted test on DTMF pass > through. Creating such test will not be trivial since it will require > collection of the large amount of real life DTMF and other telephony signal > recordings. So, we cannot make this a requirement for a new codec unless we > define this in a form of some minimum frequency fidelity or some other > independently verifiable quality requirement. > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 4:12 PM, stephen botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>wrote: > >> We don't have agreed-upon tests for anything. I've been assuming >> (possibly incorrectly) that after the requirements are understood the group >> will need to develop a test plan that indicates how we will test against the >> various requirements. >> >> Stephen Botzko >> >> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote: >> >>> This is all wonderful, but what seems to be missing here is any type of >>> standard test for DTMF tone detection. We have a number of tests for things >>> that should not be detected as DTMF (various talk-off tapes), but there is >>> no test with samples of valid DTMF signals. In real world you get quite a >>> variety of tones that different handsets or telephone devices generate when >>> a digit is pressed. Some of those tones are almost at border line conditions >>> for a valid DTMF tone. >>> >>> Second issue, which was already mentioned here, would be performance of >>> DTMF tone detector in the presence of packet loss or time stretching caused >>> by jitter buffer. Those things, even if they do not prevent DTMF detection, >>> are almost guaranteed to split a single long tone in two. >>> >>> Finally, we seemed to concentrate on DTMF tones only, but in reality all >>> the signaling/special tones are quite important. Fax Send/Receive tones come >>> to mind almost immediately as tones that are typically detected inband (very >>> few gateways encode those tones using RFC 4733/2833) >>> >>> I think we should formulate this requirement not in terms of DTMF tone >>> but in terms of accuracy of reproduction of periodic signals in specified >>> frequency ranges. To be honest, the most robust solution would be to >>> incorporate RFC4733/4744 as a part of the codec in a manner similar to >>> comfort noise frames. >>> _____________________________ >>> Roman Shpount - www.telurix.com >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Stephan, >>>> >>>> Comments inline: >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene >>>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of Tübingen >>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tübingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 >>>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/ >>>> >>>> From: stephen botzko [mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:50 PM >>>> To: Christian Hoene >>>> Cc: Michael Knappe; stpeter@stpeter.im; codec@ietf.org >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements >>>> >>>> (a) "MUST NOT" means that it must fail. Perhaps you meant "need not" or >>>> "might not"? >>>> >>>> CH: Yes, I meant need not (or the German „muss nicht“) >>>> >>>> (b) SHOULD is commonly used in establishing requirements, and it >>>> certainly was used in MARTINI and other working groups at IETF77 in >>>> requirements presentations with no confusion. It has a clear meaning in >>>> the requirements context (desirable but not essential) and I >>>> see no reason to avoid its use at this phase. There will certainly be >>>> other things that are "nice to have", and it is appropriate >>>> to track them and consider them in the selection/standardization >>>> process. >>>> >>>> CH: Better? "The codec SHOULD support the transmission DTMF at most >>>> transmission conditions." >>>> >>>> I agree that language about DTMF might not need to be in the final RFC. >>>> Though if DTMF quality is known to be inadequate, it >>>> probably makes sense to tell people that. >>>> >>>> CH: Agreed. The limits of the codec shall be clearly stated. >>>> >>>> I also agree to the obvious comment that DTMF detection methods are out >>>> of scope. >>>> >>>> CH: Agreed. >>>> >>>> CH: Isn't time to include the MUST requirement for DTMF testing and >>>> SHOULD requirement for transmission support into the >>>> requirements document. >>>> Then, we could close issue #5 and continue with other things. >>>> >>>> Christian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> codec mailing list >>>> codec@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> codec mailing list >>> codec@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec >>> >>> >> >
- [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements codec issue tracker
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements codec issue tracker
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements, Tes… Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements, Tes… Wyss, Felix
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements, Tes… Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements James Rafferty
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements James Rafferty
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Brian West
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Brian West
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Brian West
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Brian West
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention in requirements, FAX? Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention in requirements, FAX? James Rafferty
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention in requirements, FAX? Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention in requirements, FAX? Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention in requirements, FAX? stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention in requirements, FAX? Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Christian Hoene
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements James Rafferty
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Wyss, Felix
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Brian West
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements codec issue tracker
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Wyss, Felix
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements Michael Knappe
- Re: [codec] #5: Mention DTMF in requirements codec issue tracker