Re: [conex] Act bits and Positioning (Was Re: Fwd: Review: draft-ietf-conex-destopt-06)

[Suresh Krishnan <[e-mail]>]

Hi Bob/Mirja,
Sounds fine to me as well. I can live with any value of X but the only one that really makes sense is 1 :-)

Thanks
Suresh

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Briscoe [[e-mail]]
Received: Tuesday, 09 Sep 2014, 1:44PM
To: Mirja Kühlewind [[e-mail]]
CC: Suresh Krishnan [[e-mail]]; Carlos Ucendo [[e-mail]]; ConEx IETF list [[e-mail]]
Subject: Re: Act bits and Positioning (Was Re: [conex] Fwd: Review: draft-ietf-conex-destopt-06)

Mirja,

Agree with you on all 3 new responses:
* act bits = 00
* CDO SHOULD be first destopt, and MUST be among
the first X destopts: that works for me.
    X=3?
* CDO is always in the destopt position before
any IPsec, and ConEx doesn't work within an ESP tunnel.


Bob

At 15:19 09/09/2014, Mirja Kühlewind wrote:
>Hi,
>
>see inline
>
>On 09.09.2014 09:59, Bob Briscoe wrote:
>>Suresh,
>>
>>At 05:36 09/09/2014, Suresh Krishnan wrote:
>>>Hi Bob,
>>>   Thanks a lot for your comments. I will respond to two specific issues
>>>that you brought up
>>>
>>>act bits being 01: Please note that the Conex option is a *destination*
>>>option. Non conex-aware nodes on path will not even process the option.
>>>So we do not need to be worried about the packet being dropped by
>>>intermediate nodes, and we need to know if the destination does not
>>>understand it. Hence I think this should stay as 01.
>>
>>I was aware that the act bits are only processed by the destination.
>>
>>My point was that ConEx only requires sender support (ie. you can have
>>ConEx on one half-connection but not the other - there is no need to
>>negotiate ConEx for a connection). So it would be very bad for a
>>destination to drop a packet just before delivering it to the
>>destination process just because it doesn't recognise a ConEx header
>>that it doesn't need to understand anyway.
>>
>>Note to Mirja: Given this misunderstanding, perhaps the draft should
>>give a reason:
>>          "The act bits MUST be 00, because a ConEx packet needs to be
>>passed to the destination process even if the destination does not
>>understand ConEx."
>I agree with Bob, as the receiver does not need
>to proceed the option in our case at all and it
>does even know if it has to be there. Suresh?
>
>>
>>
>>>CDO as the first option: As you rightly note, this is just a performance
>>>optimization. I do believe that the performance penalty for conex-aware
>>>nodes will be pretty severe if they need to process all destination
>>>options before deciding if the CDO is present or not.
>>
>>Surely a ConEx node can stop when it gets to the CDO option (which will
>>usually be first). It doesn't need to continue and process all the other
>>options within the destopt header.
>>
>>>Please note that
>>>this needs to be done on *all* packets passing through the conex aware
>>>node.
>>
>>On packets without a destopt that is quick.
>>
>>The really bad case is for packets from senders that don't support ConEx
>>but are using many other destopts. Then the on-path ConEx node would
>>walk along every destopt until the end.
>>
>>>I do think it is OK to change the MUST to a SHOULD but with a
>>>severe warning.
>>
>>OK, thanks.
>>
>>Would it be OK to say "As an optimization, a ConEx implementation MAY
>>limit the depth of its search for CDO to two or three destination options"?
>My assumption was that search for the CDO if
>multiple options are present is not feasible in fast path.
>
>So if the CDO is not first, there are two options:
>1) forward the packet to slow path
>2) ignore the CDO
>
>Actually case 1) is probably no option because
>this would forward all present traffic to slow
>path because none of the traffic has a CDO at all.
>
>2) is at least not feasible for something like a
>policer that really needs to look at all ConEx-enable packets.
>
>Limiting the search depth, would translate into
>"the CDO SHOULD be the first option and MUST be
>among the first X options"... is that a solution?
>
>
>Bob, see further below...
>
>>
>>
>>I have also added to my response to Mirja below, with an extra thought
>>about ESP tunnels (inline - search for 'ESP tunnel' - it's a long way
>>down!)...
>>
>>
>>>Cheers
>>>Suresh
>>>
>>>On 09/08/2014 06:17 PM, Bob Briscoe wrote:
>>> > Mirja,
>>> >
>>> > At 16:57 03/09/2014, Mirja Kühlewind wrote:
>>> >> Hi again,
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 28.08.2014 22:05, Bob Briscoe wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * Suggested deleting example of Not-ConEx-capable packets
>>>(see
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> separate thread to conex-tcp-modifications authors about
>>>TCP pure
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ACKs).
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I can remove the example but not sure why you are suggesting
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> this. If
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you actually imply that the X bit should never be zero
>>>that we
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> have to
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> discuss if the X bit is needed at all.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have never thought the X flag was needed. There's
>>>probably some
>>> >>>>>>>>>> email
>>> >>>>>>>>>> on the list somewhere in the past from me that says that.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I put in one of the comment bubbles:
>>> >>>>>>>>>> "The only need I can see for the X-flag is if
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the Reserved field gets used in future for
>>> >>>>>>>>>> something in addition to ConEx. Then there
>>> >>>>>>>>>> would be a need to identify packets that
>>> >>>>>>>>>> are not ConEx-capable but still carry the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> CDO option (for the new reason)."
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Can anyone think of a use for the X flag?
>>> >>>>>>>>> I thought the X bit unset means: I'm a ConEx aware sender and i
>>> >>>>>>>>> want to
>>> >>>>>>>>> follow the rules but I don't have any feedback for this
>>>(control)
>>> >>>>>>>>> data
>>> >>>>>>>>> so I'm unable to give you useful ConEx information and if
>>>you use
>>> >>>>>>>>> this
>>> >>>>>>>>> packet for your estimation of the current congestion level, you
>>> >>>>>>>>> might
>>> >>>>>>>>> underestimate it.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make sense...?
>>> >>>>>>> Not to me. What does "feedback for this (control) data" mean?
>>>Feedback
>>> >>>>>>> is about a path used by a 5-tuple. This control data is about
>>>to be
>>> >>>>>>> sent
>>> >>>>>>> over such a path. If the sender has feedback about that path, the
>>> >>>>>>> feedback applies to everything sent over the path, at the IP
>>>layer,
>>> >>>>>>> whatever categorisation the next packet has at L4.
>>> >>>>>> If you do not get any feedback on a path, e.g. a receiver only
>>>sending
>>> >>>>>> ACKs, you will never be able to send any ConEx markings. So
>>>what's the
>>> >>>>>> point about marking a packet as ConEx-enabled?
>>> >>>>> OK, this is a good example for when a ConEx-enabled flag might be
>>> >>>>> useful. However,...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> ...This doesn't justify marking pure ACKs as not-ConEx-enabled.
>>>If a
>>> >>>>> sender sends a pure ACK now, all it knows is that it might not have
>>> >>>>> enough feedback to be able to set ConEx markings on a whole
>>>sequence of
>>> >>>>> packets later in the flow,... but only if it keeps sending
>>>solely pure
>>> >>>>> ACKs from now on. However, a sender can't be sure that it won't
>>>have
>>> >>>>> enough feedback in future, because usually an app (let alone the
>>> >>>>> transport layer) cannot predict whether there will be more data
>>>to send
>>> >>>>> later, even if it's not sending any now.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Once a sender has had no feedback for at least a round trip, it
>>>has 2
>>> >>>>> options for subsequent packets:
>>> >>>>> a) turn off ConEx-enabled;
>>> >>>>> b) keep sending packets with ConEx-enabled set, but
>>>conservatively add
>>> >>>>> some credit.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Even if it subsequently sends some data, it will still have to
>>>do (a) or
>>> >>>>> (b) on these data packets, at least for one further round trip,
>>>until it
>>> >>>>> gets the feedback. So this is nothing to do with whether the packet
>>> >>>>> being sent is a pure ACK. It is to do with whether feedback has
>>>recently
>>> >>>>> been received.
>>> >>>> Okay, rewrote the paragraph slightly:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> "If the X bit is zero all other three bits are undefined and thus
>>> >>>> should be ignored and forwarded unchanged by network nodes. The X
>>>bit
>>> >>>> set to zero means that the connection is ConEx-capable but this
>>>packet
>>> >>>> MUST NOT be accounted when determining ConEx information in an audit
>>> >>>> function. This can be the case if no feedback on the congestion
>>>status
>>> >>>> is (currently) available for e.g. for control packets (not carrying
>>> >>>> any user data). As an example a TCP receiver that only sends pure
>>>ACKs
>>> >>>> will usually send them as ACK are usually not ECN-capable as ACK
>>> >>>> usually are not ECN-capable and TCP does not have a mechanism to
>>> >>>> announce ACK lost. Thus congestion information about ACKs are not
>>> >>>> available."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Is this okay?
>>> >>> The main problem is saying 'not available *for* control packets'. But
>>> >>> just changing 'for' to 'from' would still make this too unclear to be
>>> >>> understood.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Also need to:
>>> >>> * Make it clear the example is TCP-specific.
>>> >>> * Focus on loss first, then ECN.
>>> >>> * 'mechanism to announce ACK loss' is not really understandable.
>>> >>> * Avoid 'control packets', which is too general, given this is an
>>> >>> example, so it can be specific.
>>> >>> * Nit: duplicated word (for e.g. for) and duplicated phrase (as
>>>ACK are
>>> >>> usually not ECN-capable as ACK usually are not ECN-capable).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> How about:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> First 2 sentences unchanged, then...
>>> >>> "This can be the case if no congestion feedback is (currently)
>>>available
>>> >>> e.g. in TCP if one endpoint has been receiving data but sending
>>>nothing
>>> >>> but pure ACKs (no user data) for some time. This is because pure
>>>ACKs do
>>> >>> not advance the sequence number, so the TCP endpoint receiving them
>>> >>> cannot reliably tell whether any have been lost due to congestion.
>>>Pure
>>> >>> TCP ACKs cannot be ECN-marked either [RFC3168]."
>>> >> Fine for me. Done.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>>>> Further note, in the TCP mods we only look at the payload
>>>because we
>>> >>>>>> assume, for simplification, all packets have the same size.
>>>Therefore
>>> >>>>>> a packet that carries no data would not decrease the CEG/LEG.
>>>If ACKs
>>> >>>>>> should get marked, we need to rewrite all this stuff in the tcp
>>>mods
>>> >>>>>> doc...
>>> >>>>> I don't think we should avoid changing tcp-mods if its 'not right'.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I hope you see the problem from my explanation above - whether
>>>there is
>>> >>>>> enough feedback /now/ to ConEx-mark a packet has nothing to do with
>>> >>>>> whether the packet being sent /now/ is capable of generating
>>>feedback
>>> >>>>> /in the next round/.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> If you want to make a simplifying assumption, it is on the safe
>>>side for
>>> >>>>> a sender to assume that all incoming feedback is about packets
>>>of the
>>> >>>>> same size. It's not safe for a sender to assume that all packets
>>>it is
>>> >>>>> sending are the same size. Anyway, it knows what size it is
>>>sending, so
>>> >>>>> it doesn't need this simplification.
>>> >>>> Okay, the assumption is (only) that feedback is based on packets
>>>that
>>> >>>> are the same size. If we send you a packet we of course decrease the
>>> >>>> LEG/CEG by the actually payload bytes. But taking this assumption be
>>> >>>> simply do not account for headers at all (nor incoming neither
>>> >>>> outcoming) because we can anyway just estimated the header bits and
>>> >>>> there simply assume it will equal out. Which mean if we send a pure
>>> >>>> ACK we will not decrease the LEG/CEG because there are no payload
>>> >>>> bytes. I believe that this simplification makes thing much
>>>simpler and
>>> >>>> is therefore useful but will not allow for marking pure ACKs...
>>> >>> I thought the earlier definition said that ConEx accounts for the
>>>size
>>> >>> of the IP header that contains the CDO and everything within it.
>>>Also,
>>> >>> there's the TCP header size on a pure ACK.
>>> >> Yes, especially when a network node accounts
>>> >> ConEx marks. But in the (TCP) sender we just
>>> >> don't care about the header bits for
>>> >> simplification. We are aware that all bits will
>>> >> be accounted but as we assume equal size packets that should be fine.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> That's the basis on which I am assuming that pure ACKs are worth
>>> >>> counting. A pure ACK will count as at least 86B (and more if there
>>>are
>>> >>> additional TCP options or IP extensions).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> IPv6 header: 40B
>>> >>> CDO dest opt: 6B
>>> >>> TCP header: 40B
>>> >>> Total: 86B
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If there are more IP extensions, I guess it will be hard for TCP
>>>to know
>>> >>> though.
>>> >> Yes, so how should I implement that?
>>> > I guess just assume that any IP extensions will
>>> > be constant on every packet in a flow, therefore
>>> > assuming none will be similar to assuming some.
>>> >
>>> >>>> You didn't convince me (yet) that this should be changed but this
>>> >>>> would need to be changed in the tcp mods doc and not this one
>>>anyway.
>>> >>> Agreed (that this would affect tcp-mods, not destopt).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> What is 'this' that you aren't yet convinced by?
>>> >> 'this' is the fact that I need to changed
>>> >> something in the tcp mods document. I might
>>> >> remove the statement (if existent) that control
>>> >> packets should be not-ConEx capable but I would
>>> >> still like to recommend it because I believe it
>>> >> makes things overly complicated otherwise. The
>>> >> point is I believe that at the location in the
>>> >> (Linux) code where you implement the counting,
>>> >> you don't even have the information how large
>>> >> the pure ACK will be in the end...
>>> > See next comment.
>>> >
>>> >>>>> The simplification I propose (that feedback is all about the
>>>same size
>>> >>>>> packets, rather than all the sent packets are the same size) is
>>>likely
>>> >>>>> to be pretty good, given the receiver doesn't get loss or ECN
>>>info about
>>> >>>>> pure ACKs, so they are automatically removed from the set of
>>>packets
>>> >>>>> that the sender assumes to be the same size. And, and if some of
>>>the
>>> >>>>> feedback is about smaller data packets, at least this
>>>simplification
>>> >>>>> will always be on the safe side.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> If I correctly understand the simplification you propose, a
>>>ConEx sender
>>> >>>>> will more often under-declare congestion than over-declaring,
>>>which is
>>> >>>>> not safe.
>>> >>>> I don't believe so. Was this just of a different understanding of
>>>what
>>> >>>> we proposed or can you explain further...?
>>> >>> I thought you were proposing that a TCP sender assumes all the
>>>packets
>>> >>> it sends are full-sized, even if they aren't. But I believe you have
>>> >>> said that is not what you proposed.
>>> >> No, when reducing the congestion counter(s) we
>>> >> use the actual number of payload bytes. We also
>>> >> use the real number of acknowledged bytes to
>>> >> increase the counter(s). We simply do not care
>>> >> about the header bytes at all assuming that on
>>> >> average all packets have the same size and
>>> >> therefor the number of (marked) header bytes
>>> >> (either ECN or ConEx) in total will be about right.
>>> > OK. I understand now.
>>> >
>>> > Ultimately TCP has to put a number in the Data
>>> > Offset field, so it has to know the size of its
>>> > own header. However, for an initial
>>> > (experimental) implementation, if you need your
>>> > proposal to assume all TCP options within one
>>> > flow are the same size, it would be reasonable
>>> > (it's not actually true, e.g. SACK, but there
>>> > should at least be no bias, so you will overstate as much as
>>>understate).
>>> >
>>> > You say earlier that it is too complicated to
>>> > implement code within TCP that knows the size of
>>> > a pure ACK. If TCP code doesn't know the size of
>>> > a TCP header, then Linux must be using magic
>>> > instead of code. Because, surely, the whole point
>>> > of the TCP code is to write a TCP header.
>>> >
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ==Fast-path==
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * CDO as first destination option: changed from MUST to
>>>SHOULD
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (with
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> an example of when not to).
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I believe this really needs to be a MUST. I know that might
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> restrict
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the use of ConEx with potential other options that might
>>>have the
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> same
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> requirement (for different reasons). But if you don't put
>>>a MUST
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you cannot implemented the suggested way in the fast path.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> A SHOULD still means it will be the first option in all
>>>current
>>> >>>>>>>>>> implementations. However, I suggest a SHOULD, precisely
>>>because
>>> >>>>>>>>>> performance reasons are not absolute, so they don't require a
>>> >>>>>>>>>> MUST. If
>>> >>>>>>>>>> another dest opt cannot work at all unless it is first,
>>>that would
>>> >>>>>>>>>> be a
>>> >>>>>>>>>> valid reason for CDO coming second, because it still works,
>>>it's
>>> >>>>>>>>>> /just/
>>> >>>>>>>>>> slower.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> The IESG will (rightly) be very wary of any draft that says an
>>> >>>>>>>>>> option
>>> >>>>>>>>>> MUST be the first option.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> I suggested the following text after this: "(This is not
>>> >>>>>>>>>> stated as a 'MUST', because some future destination option
>>>might
>>> >>>>>>>>>> need to
>>> >>>>>>>>>> be placed first for functional rather than just performance
>>> >>>>>>>>>> reasons.)"
>>> >>>>>>>>> So our fast path implementation must simply assume that
>>>there is no
>>> >>>>>>>>> CDO
>>> >>>>>>>>> in case it cannot find it as the first option. Otherwise all
>>> >>>>>>>>> non-ConEx
>>> >>>>>>>>> packets would need to go to the slow path to make sure there
>>>is no
>>> >>>>>>>>> ConEx
>>> >>>>>>>>> option. That means to me that this must be a MUST...?
>>> >>>>>>> OK, I see the problem, but how much of a performance problem
>>>would it
>>> >>>>>>> really be for the fast path of a ConEx function to step along
>>>dest
>>> >>>>>>> opts
>>> >>>>>>> until it gets to CDO then stops (rather than stop if CDO is not
>>> >>>>>>> first)?
>>> >>>>>> So that's the different between you looking at one bit at a
>>>defined
>>> >>>>>> position or having a chain of conditional look-ups where the
>>>length is
>>> >>>>>> unknown. I believe that is something you would avoid to
>>>implement in
>>> >>>>>> fast path as the processing time is not fixed anymore... that
>>>would be
>>> >>>>>> my guess but I'm not an expert in this area.
>>> >>>>> AFAICT, fast path implementations generally work along sequences of
>>> >>>>> extensions. So I don't think this is a problem. Bear in mind
>>>that we are
>>> >>>>> not asking general fast path forwarding implementations to do
>>>this. Only
>>> >>>>> ConEx functions specifically written to find the ConEx
>>>header.{Note 1}
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> {Note 1} OK, we do suggest that general forwarding functions
>>>could do
>>> >>>>> DoS protection using the ConEx header. But that's stated as
>>>optional and
>>> >>>>> 'aspirational'. If such an experiment proves useful, you never
>>>know,
>>> >>>>> there could be demand for ConEx to migrate into the hop-by-hop
>>>options
>>> >>>>> (according to the v6 spec, hop-by-hop and dest options share the
>>>same
>>> >>>>> option number space, so this would be a straightforward
>>>migration, just
>>> >>>>> moving where the CDO is placed, but using the same option number
>>>and
>>> >>>>> format).
>>> >>>> There might be also further use cases for e.g. traffic management or
>>> >>>> multipath routing where general forwarding nodes need to access this
>>> >>>> information.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> So what's the solution here?
>>> >>> I think this will get thrown back by the IESG if we say 'MUST be
>>>first'.
>>> >>> And I think 'SHOULD be first' is a doable implementation for
>>>ConEx-aware
>>> >>> nodes. That is sufficient for experimental. Any experiments where
>>> >>> general forwarding nodes access ConEx will already be reading a
>>>destopt
>>> >>> at every hop, which is not what was intended, but it would be doable
>>> >>> just for an experiment that wanted to prove ConEx has wider uses.
>>> >> I know that this might be a problem with IESG review, but... it's
>>>broken...
>>> >>
>>> >>> Everyone involved in IPv6 knows that the attempt to design
>>>extensibility
>>> >>> into v6 failed. It won't be news to the IESG that we can't add an
>>> >>> extension that can be processed at every hop on the fast path.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If a destopt is sufficient to prove ConEx useful, then
>>>implementers will
>>> >>> want to satisfy this demand. Then
>>> >>> * either there is even more pressure on the IETF to address this
>>>failing
>>> >>> in v6 (and maybe someone will),
>>> >>> * or ConEx has to continue with this destopt solution, just like
>>> >>> everyone else is finding hacks round this failing in v6.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> But don't ask me. Ask Suresh.
>>> >> Yes! Unfortunately he did not response until
>>> >> now. Maybe he is/was on holidays; will ping him again.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>> Then "CDO SHOULD be first" would give no different performance
>>>to "CDO
>>> >>>>>>> MUST be first", if CDO actually was first. If CDO had to be
>>>placed
>>> >>>>>>> second on a certain packet, "CDO SHOULD be first" would take
>>>just one
>>> >>>>>>> more op than "CDO MUST be first".
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Note: I've just re-read the spec of the IPv6 header. We need to
>>> >>>>>>> specify
>>> >>>>>>> that CDO goes in the "Destination Options (before routing
>>>header)",
>>> >>>>>>> not
>>> >>>>>>> the "Destination Options (before upper-layer header)". Then it
>>> >>>>>>> won't be
>>> >>>>>>> encrypted by an ESP header.
>>> >>>>>> Thanks. I wasn't fully aware of this. But the difference for my
>>> >>>>>> understanding is if immediate node listed in the routing header
>>>should
>>> >>>>>> proceed this option or not. In our case it is probably not
>>>important
>>> >>>>>> which one we choose as it should be processed by none of the
>>>receivers.
>>> >>>>> You're correct that CDO isn't processed by any of the nodes
>>>listed in
>>> >>>>> the routing header as destinations. The phrase "before routing
>>>header"
>>> >>>>> is just how its placement is described. We should clarify that this
>>> >>>>> isn't anything to do with the processing of the routing header.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Where did you read that the later one is not encrypted though?
>>> >>>>> ESP encrypts everything after the ESP header, and it comes just
>>>before
>>> >>>>> the second dest opts. So it would be no good putting CDO after it.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> See the ESP spec, on "ESP Header Location":
>>> >>>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2406#section-3.1>
>>> >>>>> "  The destination options extension header(s) could appear
>>> >>>>>     either before or after the ESP header depending on the
>>>semantics
>>> >>>>>     desired.  However, since ESP protects only fields after the ESP
>>> >>>>>     header, it generally may be desirable to place the destination
>>> >>>>>     options header(s) after the ESP header.
>>> >>>>> "
>>> >>>> Thanks. Wasn't able to find this sentence!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Also see the IPv6 spec on "Extension Header Order":
>>> >>>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2460#section-4.1>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I believe one reason there are two places for the dest opt is
>>>because if
>>> >>>>> ESP is encrypting everything for the destination, it will
>>>normally be
>>> >>>>> expected that the dest opts need to be encrypted too. But this
>>>wouldn't
>>> >>>>> work if you have multiple destinations on the path in the
>>>routing header
>>> >>>>> (that probably don't hold the relevant key).  Fortunately, this
>>> >>>>> exception is also needed for ConEx.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> If so, I can simply add one sentence to the first paragraph of
>>> >>>>>> section 4:
>>> >>>>>> "The CDO MUST be placed in the destination option before routing
>>> >>>>>> header such that it does not get encrypted and can be read by
>>> >>>>>> immediate ConEx-aware nodes."
>>> >>>>>> And then remove the first paragraph of the IPSec section (and
>>>probably
>>> >>>>>> move the other paragraph somewhere else so that the section is
>>>removed
>>> >>>>>> completely)...?
>>> >>>>> I've lost track of all the proposed changes to the IPsec
>>>section. But I
>>> >>>>> think there is value in spelling out exactly how ConEx and IPsec
>>> >>>>> interact, so I wouldn't remove the section completely, even if it
>>> >>>>> repeats info elsewhere.
>>> >>>> Okay I just realized that we recommend to to use TPSec for
>>> >>>> authentication but I believe if the ConEx option should not be
>>> >>>> encrypted by using the respective header, it will also not be
>>> >>>> authenticated...? So you can have either one of the two...? I
>>>believe
>>> >>>> we still need the IPSec section but right now I'm not sure what to
>>> >>>> right in there...? Any proposal?
>>> >>> * How to do ConEx when IPsec is also required (tunnel & transport
>>>modes,
>>> >>> and what to count). This may all be obvious now, but (IMO) it
>>>would still
>>> >>> be worth spelling out obvious things.
>>> >>> * How to use IPsec to protect the integrity of CDO.
>>> >> Okay, this is the text now:
>>> >>
>>> >> "Compatibility with use of IPsec
>>> >>
>>> >> In IPv6 there are two possible position of a
>>> >> Destination Option header, either before the
>>> >> Routing header or after the Encapsulating Security Payload (ESP)
>>>header.
>>> >          BETTER?:
>>> > In IPv6 a Destination Option header can be placed
>>> > in two possible position in the order of possible
>>> > headers, either before the Routing header or
>>> > after the Encapsulating Security Payload (ESP) header.
>>> >          REASONING:
>>> > We are talking about the positions where these
>>> > headers /would/ be if they were there - they might not actually be
>>>present.
>>> >
>>> >> If the packet is encrypted using IPSec tunnel
>>> >> mode, the CDO MUST be placed in the destination
>>> >> option before the Routing header such that it
>>> >> does not get encrypted and can be read by immediate ConEx-aware nodes.
>>> >          BETTER?:
>>> > CDO MUST always be placed in a destination option
>>> > header placed before where the routing header
>>> > would be. Otherwise, if CDO were placed in the
>>> > latter position and an ESP header were used, the CDO would be
>>>encrypt the
>>> >          REASONING:
>>> > (There is no need for it to ever be in the later
>>> > position and it's best to always be in the same place.)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Note as the Authentication Header (AH) also only
>>> >> protects fields after the AH header, the CDO is not authenticated
>>>in this case.
>>> > Need to say the encapsulator copies CDO from the
>>> > inner IPv6 CDO before encrypting the inner.
>>> >
>>> > s/read by immediate/read by/
>>> >
>>> > AH integrity protects the IPv6 header that encapsulates it. ESP does
>>>not.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> In IPSec transport mode both destination option
>>> >> headers can be used, as the CDO is in both cases
>>> >> visible to the network. If the transport network
>>> >> can not be trusted, the Destination Option
>>> >> header after the ESP header SHOULD be used to
>>> >> ensure integrity of the ConEx information. If an
>>> >> attacker would be able to remove the ConEx
>>> >> marks, this could        cause an audit device
>>> >> to penalize the respective connection, while the
>>> >> sender cannot easily detect that ConEx information is missing."
>>> >>
>>> >> Does this seem to be right now?
>>> > Sorry, this is all wrong. One cannot use ESP to
>>> > authenticate or protect the integrity of CDO by
>>> > putting CDO after ESP, because ESP would then
>>> > encrypt CDO so ConEx-aware nodes would not be
>>> > able to read it. CDO always has to precede ESP,
>>> > which is why I said CDO MUST always be in the first destopt position.
>>> >
>>> > If the CDO header needs to be authenticated, AH
>>> > can be used as in the second example below. AH
>>> > protects the integrity of the whole IPv6 datagram
>>> > it is encapsulated by (except non-predictable
>>> > mutable fields). AH coverage includes the IPv6
>>> > header and extension headers before the AH
>>> > header, and everything after the AH header too.
>Sorry that's my fault; I thought, (similar to
>ESP) the authentication header would only
>authenticate headers after the AH. (Checked now with rfc4302 that I was wrong.)
>
>>> >
>>> > I think it would be worth listing the two or
>>> > three example header sequences in the draft, as
>>> > below. Headers in [] need not be present. Headers in {} are encrypted.
>>> >
>>> > Transport mode without the integrity of CDO protected:
>>> >    IPv6
>>> >    [Hop-by-Hop]
>>> >    [Routing]
>>> >    Destopt(CDO[,...])
>>> >    [Fragment]
>>> >    ESP{
>>> >      [Destopt]
>>> >      Upper-Layer
>>> >    }
>>> >
>>> > Transport mode with the integrity of CDO protected:
>>> >    IPv6
>>> >    [Hop-by-Hop]
>>> >    [Routing]
>>> >    Destopt(CDO[,...])
>>> >    [Fragment]
>>> >    AH
>>> >    ESP{
>>> >      [Destopt]
>>> >      Upper-Layer
>>> >    }
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Tunnel mode:
>>> >    IPv6
>>> >    [Hop-by-Hop]
>>> >    [Routing]
>>> >    Destopt(CDO-copy[,...])
>>> >    [Fragment]
>>> >    ESP{
>>> >      IPv6
>>> >      Destopt(CDO[,...])
>>> >      Transport Payload
>>> >    }
>>> >
>>> > For ESP in tunnel mode, as already stated in the
>>> > draft, the tunnel ingress MUST copy the CDO from
>>> > the destopt in the inner, then write a copy of
>>> > the CDO header into a destopt header in the outer.
>>> >
>>> > I think this updates RFC2406. However, it is
>>> > possible that 2406 already requires an ESP
>>> > ingress to copy any extension headers, up to and
>>> > including Fragmentation, to the outer. Because
>>> > all these headers are designed to be visible to
>>> > nodes on the path. Suresh may know this.
>>
>>I checked overnight and copying extension headers is contrary to the
>>IPSec architecture.
>>
>><http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2401#section-5.1.2.2> "IPv6 -- Header
>>Construction for Tunnel Mode" says:
>>          "Extension headers  never copied"
>>
>>On reflection, I don't think we should update RFC2401 for ConEx. If I
>>were on the IESG, I would not approve that. IPsec needs to have simple
>>rules without exceptions.
>>
>>When we chose destopt as the mechanism for ConEx, we knew it wasn't
>>going to interact well with tunnels. I think the best approach is to say,
>>          "Currently, the IPv6 protocol architecture does not provide a
>>mechanism for new extension headers to be copied to the outer. Therefore
>>ConEx functions will have to search for the CDO option within inner
>>headers, and ConEx will not work at all over the extent of an ESP tunnel".
>
>So all in all, this simplifies thing to
>basically "CDO MUST be placed in the destination
>option header before the AH and/or EPS (if present)."
>
>(+ our text just above on not interacting with tunnel mode)
>
>Right?
>
>Mirja
>
>>
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>
>>> >
>>> > To protect the integrity of the outer IPv6
>>> > datagram, including protecting the copy of CDO,
>>> > an AH header (not shown) could be added before ESP.
>>> >
>>> > [A worse alternative (no need to mention this):
>>> > If the integrity of CDO but not other headers
>>> > needed to be protected, ESP with authentication
>>> > enabled could be used, which causes
>>> > authentication data to be added at the end of the
>>> > payload (not shown). Then, before decapsulation,
>>> > the tunnel egress would have to record the value
>>> > of CDO-copy. Having decrypted the inner, it could
>>> > then check that CDO-copy matched the CDO in the
>>> > inner.  However, that would require another
>>> > update to RFC2406, so using AH would be
>>> > preferable, given we don't want to make ConEx
>>> > depend on updating both ends of an ESP tunnel - one end is bad enough.]
>>> >
>>> > HTH
>>> > Sorry for taking so long - I wrote most of this
>>> > on a plane on Thu, but left some fact checking
>>> > for when I got online, and this is the first chance I've had to get
>>>back to it.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Bob
>>> >
>>> >>>>>>>>> Moreover, isn't this here the same case than with tunneling in
>>> >>>>>>>>> general.
>>> >>>>>>>>> Only if the node that does the encapsulation is ConEx-aware
>>>it can
>>> >>>>>>>>> copy
>>> >>>>>>>>> the CDO, otherwise it will be not visible anymore.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> So this should either be a should, or we have to say something
>>> >>>>>>>>> like: if
>>> >>>>>>>>> the node is ConEx-aware is MUST copy the CDO...?
>>> >>>>>>>> And then we can the same thing for tunneling in general...?
>>> >>>>>>> That's surely a circular argument. What would make a tunnel
>>>endpoint
>>> >>>>>>> into a ConEx-aware tunnel endpoint, so that it would have to
>>>copy the
>>> >>>>>>> CDO? It would only become ConEx-aware if it had code added to
>>>look for
>>> >>>>>>> the CDO, and why would it have that code added unless it was
>>>going
>>> >>>>>>> to do
>>> >>>>>>> something with CDO? That's why I think my 'MAY copy as a
>>>performance
>>> >>>>>>> optimisation' formula is the best we can do.
>>> >>>>>> What you say above is the point. If the node does not know
>>>anything
>>> >>>>>> about ConEx, it simple cannot copy the option, which is the
>>>case for
>>> >>>>>> all currently existent nodes. So we cannot say MUST in general.
>>>But if
>>> >>>>>> the node does know that ConEx exists for any reason, it really
>>>must
>>> >>>>>> copy the CDO...? But you right that is a little pathologic. I'm
>>>will
>>> >>>>>> to change if that helps understanding/is less confusing.
>>> >>>>> I think we're talking past each other. Given we cannot copy CDO
>>>to the
>>> >>>>> outer everywhere, for consistency I don't think that copying CDO
>>>to the
>>> >>>>> outer at all is a good idea, UNLESS it's done deliberately as
>>>part of an
>>> >>>>> operator's whole approach to handling ConEx. Ie. tunnel
>>>endpoints SHOULD
>>> >>>>> NOT copy CDO to the outer by default, but they MAY copy CDO to
>>>the outer
>>> >>>>> for a specific purpose (e.g. optimisation for ConEx functions
>>>elsewhere
>>> >>>>> in the same operator's network).
>>> >>>> Now understood.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I've tried to make this point a little more clear, not sure if I
>>> >>>> succeeded:
>>> >>>> "As with any destination option, an ingress tunnel endpoint will not
>>> >>>> natively copy the CDO when adding an encapsulating outer IP
>>>header. In
>>> >>>> general an ingress tunnel SHOULD not copy the CDO to the outer
>>>header
>>> >>>> as this would changed the number of bytes that would be accounted.
>>> >>>> However, it MAY copy the CDO to the outer in order to facilitate
>>> >>>> visibility by subsequent on-path ConEx functions if the tunnel
>>>ingree
>>> >>>> is aware of these nodes and theses nodes are aware of the tunneling.
>>> >>>> This trades off the performance of ConEx functions against that of
>>> >>>> tunnel processing. "
>>> >>> OK. Rather than implying that equipment has evolved conscious
>>>awareness,
>>> >>> a better formulation would be something like:
>>> >>> "..the configuration of the tunnel ingress and the ConEx nodes is
>>> >>> co-ordinated."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Nits:
>>> >>> s/SHOULD not/SHOULD NOT/
>>> >>> s/accounted/counted/
>>> >>>    (in English, accounted is not a transitive verb, it has to have
>>>'for'
>>> >>> after it)
>>> >>> s/ingree/ingress/
>>> >>> s/theses/these/
>>> >> Done.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> We're getting there!
>>> >> Yes...!
>>> >>
>>> >> Mirja
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> But we really do need Suresh's expert eye on this.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Cheers
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bob
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Mirja
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> HTH
>>> >>>>> (Delayed 'cos it was a public holday in the UK yesterday.)
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Bob
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Bob
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Mirja
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ==Security Considerations==
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * Added lots, all pointers to where security issues are
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> discussed in
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> other places (which is what security directorate
>>>reviewers need).
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Okay I can add that if you think it's necessary (I would
>>>say it's
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> just
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> redundant, but you be might right that it just helps the
>>>sec dir).
>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's not always obvious which aspects relate to security.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Especially
>>> >>>>>>>>>> when the security is structural rather than crypto. So I think
>>> >>>>>>>>>> these
>>> >>>>>>>>>> sentences are useful to sec dir.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ==IANA==
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * I think the act bits need to be 00 not 10 to avoid ConEx
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> packets
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> being dropped by non-ConEx nodes (including by non-ConEx
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> receivers)?
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But I'm willing to be corrected.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree; Will ask Suresh why he has put a 10 though.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, he's the right guy to check with.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mirja
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>> >>>>>>>>>> {Note 1}
>>> >>>>>>>>>> For anyone watching on the list, the tentative idea that
>>>Mirja has
>>> >>>>>>>>>> reminded me of is documented in 11.3.1 of my PhD thesis
>>>entitled
>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Covert
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Markings as a Policer Signal".
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> The potential problem: A ConEx policer punishes punishment.
>>>If a
>>> >>>>>>>>>> congestion policer starts dropping packets because the user
>>>has
>>> >>>>>>>>>> contributed excessively to congestion, in subsequent rounds
>>>the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> user
>>> >>>>>>>>>> has
>>> >>>>>>>>>> to re-echo 'L' markings for the policer drops as well. This
>>>can
>>> >>>>>>>>>> drive
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the policer further into 'debit'. This might make it
>>>difficult for
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> user to get out of trouble once she's started getting into
>>>trouble.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> The basic idea was that when a congestion policer drops
>>>packets
>>> >>>>>>>>>> (because
>>> >>>>>>>>>> the user is causing more congestion than her allowance), it
>>>will
>>> >>>>>>>>>> also
>>> >>>>>>>>>> remove ConEx markings. Then (if there is some way for the
>>> >>>>>>>>>> receiver to
>>> >>>>>>>>>> feed this back), the sender knows not to send more ConEx marks
>>> >>>>>>>>>> because
>>> >>>>>>>>>> these aren't congestion drops, they are policer drops.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> We didn't that double punishment made it hard to get out of
>>> >>>>>>>>>> trouble in
>>> >>>>>>>>>> any policer experiments so far, so let's not allow for a
>>>possible
>>> >>>>>>>>>> solution to a problem that we probably don't even have. The
>>>current
>>> >>>>>>>>>> crop
>>> >>>>>>>>>> of ConEx drafts are experimental anyway. If this problem does
>>> >>>>>>>>>> surface,
>>> >>>>>>>>>> then we can reconsider.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>________________________________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>Briscoe,                                                  BT
>>> >>>>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> >>>>>>>> Dipl.-Ing. Mirja Kühlewind
>>> >>>>>>>> Communication Systems Group
>>> >>>>>>>> Institute TIK, ETH Zürich
>>> >>>>>>>> Gloriastrasse 35, 8092 Zürich, Switzerland
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Room ETZ G93
>>> >>>>>>>> phone: [phone]
>>> >>>>>>>> email: [e-mail]
>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>> Bob Briscoe,                                                  BT
>>> >>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> >>>>>> Dipl.-Ing. Mirja Kühlewind
>>> >>>>>> Communication Systems Group
>>> >>>>>> Institute TIK, ETH Zürich
>>> >>>>>> Gloriastrasse 35, 8092 Zürich, Switzerland
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Room ETZ G93
>>> >>>>>> phone: [phone]
>>> >>>>>> email: [e-mail]
>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>> >>>>> Bob Briscoe,                                                  BT
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> Dipl.-Ing. Mirja Kühlewind
>>> >>>> Communication Systems Group
>>> >>>> Institute TIK, ETH Zürich
>>> >>>> Gloriastrasse 35, 8092 Zürich, Switzerland
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Room ETZ G93
>>> >>>> phone: [phone]
>>> >>>> email: [e-mail]
>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> >>> ________________________________________________________________
>>> >>> Bob Briscoe,                                                  BT
>>> >> --
>>> >> ------------------------------------------
>>> >> Dipl.-Ing. Mirja Kühlewind
>>> >> Communication Systems Group
>>> >> Institute TIK, ETH Zürich
>>> >> Gloriastrasse 35, 8092 Zürich, Switzerland
>>> >>
>>> >> Room ETZ G93
>>> >> phone: [phone]
>>> >> email: [e-mail]
>>> >> ------------------------------------------
>>> > ________________________________________________________________
>>> > Bob Briscoe,                                                  BT
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>________________________________________________________________
>>Bob Briscoe,                                                  BT
>
>--
>------------------------------------------
>Dipl.-Ing. Mirja Kühlewind
>Communication Systems Group
>Institute TIK, ETH Zürich
>Gloriastrasse 35, 8092 Zürich, Switzerland
>
>Room ETZ G93
>phone: [phone]
>email: [e-mail]
>------------------------------------------

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                                  BT