Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more-units-02.txt> (Additional Units for SenML) to Proposed Standard
"Pete Resnick" <resnick@episteme.net> Mon, 28 October 2019 18:57 UTC
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From: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>
To: "Gillmore, Matthew" <Matthew.Gillmore@itron.com>
Cc: Ari Keränen <ari.keranen=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, core-chairs@ietf.org, IETF Crazy <ietf@ietf.org>, core <core@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-core-senml-more-units@ietf.org, Hytonen Harri <harri.hytonen@vaisala.com>, last-call@ietf.org
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:57:45 -0500
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Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more-units-02.txt> (Additional Units for SenML) to Proposed Standard
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Matt, Ari, and Harri, While you give good support for adding these units, and I am OK with that idea, do you have any objection to adding them to the main registry, which was the other suggestion that Cullen made? I still have not seen a convincing argument not to make these part of the main registry. pr On 28 Oct 2019, at 10:40, Gillmore, Matthew wrote: > Hi Cullen, > > I am the chair of the IPSO working group in OMA and also support what > Ari wrote. During the last IETF in Montreal, stakeholders from the > IPSO working group along with the Core working group met and it was > consensus amongst both working groups that the second registry is how > we would like to move forward. > > Cheers, > > Matt > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ari Keränen > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 6:37 PM > To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> > Cc: core-chairs@ietf.org; IETF Crazy <ietf@ietf.org>; core > <core@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-core-senml-more-units@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: > <draft-ietf-core-senml-more-units-02.txt> (Additional Units for SenML) > to Proposed Standard > > Hi Cullen, > > Carsten already replied to some of these issues later in the thread, > but let me add some more viewpoints. > >> On 22. Oct 2019, at 17.06, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote: >> I am strongly opposed to the secondary registry - it will >> significantly harm interoperability. This could be resolved by not >> adding the items in the secondary repository or by adding them to the >> main repository. >> >> Having a registry of stuff that may or may not work simply means that >> we will have less interoperability because what you can not decide >> what is valid SenML or not. Sure some of the device vendors making >> things that produce SenML have thought this was a good idea in the >> past but I’d like to hear from a bunch of the people that have to >> process the SenML data that is produced and see if they think it is a >> good idea. > > Both registries would work and their use would result in valid SenML. > In a sense the second registry is almost the same as "adding them to > the main repository", but having the second registry enables us to > give better guidance which units to use/prefer and also provide the > translation to the "main registry units". > >> The working group discussed this for a long time and was against the >> items that are being added to the secondary repository. >> If there is a large group of people that agree the consensus has >> changed, then this should simply be put in the main registry. Many >> people believe that since SenML is not meant to be human readable, >> having a canonical form of just meters with a floating point number >> is better than having both km, mm, and god only knows what else. > > Yes, the canonical form of "just meters" is still the recommended way > in general, but that approach did not work as well as we hoped for all > use cases. For example when your sensor value is always in integers of > mm/h, it's more convenient and efficient to send integer values than > multiples of 2.777e-7. Also in many use cases there is a > well-established scaled unit that is used in the industry and forcing > to use a different one didn't turn out to be very productive (we can > still recommend, though, and that's one of the reasons why we are > proposing an additional registry). Finally, legacy models that use > non-scaled units but would like to use SenML as the wire format and > units registry would be expensive to update to use only non-scaled > units. > >> I note the secondary repository add mm but not cm. How is this >> insanity going to work out? How will analytics code trying to process >> this data know what it can use or not use. If we are going down this >> path, this is the wrong way to do it. The right way is to define a >> set of all SI prefixes and say they can be used with any unit. > > Any implementation should not try to use anything that is not in the > IANA registry. We did also consider to enable all SI prefixes, but > concluded that it is still useful to have the smallest reasonable set > of units to facilitate interoperability. If there's a real use case > that uses a unit with SI prefix that is missing, it can be simply > registered. Also not all units in the additional registry would work > with just different SI prefix (e.g., min or dBm). > > > Cheers, > Ari > >> >>> On Oct 16, 2019, at 11:42 AM, The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> The IESG has received a request from the Constrained RESTful >>> Environments WG >>> (core) to consider the following document: - 'Additional Units for >>> SenML' >>> <draft-ietf-core-senml-more-units-02.txt> as Proposed Standard >>> >>> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and >>> solicits >>> final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to >>> the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-10-30. Exceptionally, >>> comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, >>> please >>> retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >>> >>> Abstract >>> >>> >>> The Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML) media type supports the >>> indication of units for a quantity represented. This short document >>> registers a number of additional unit names in the IANA registry for >>> Units in SenML. It also defines a registry for secondary units that >>> cannot be in SenML's main registry as they are derived by linear >>> transformation from units already in that registry; RFC 8428 is >>> updated to also accept these units. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The file can be obtained via >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf >>> .org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dcore-2Dsenml-2Dmore-2Dunits_&d=DwIGaQ&c=pqcuz >>> KEN_84c78MOSc5_fw&r=UdGshIy7O85QbjoqbIdb_K7GJN4Vxe8yisqNq0oQtS4&m=1HS >>> mPnFlr7WEiLKKLxMke_BtKIEXMq-xPdsDRzT3I1k&s=wIciltspG7rnX8nThlkp4SeFlD >>> uiYAwaeqZEOxVBC9Y&e= >>> >>> IESG discussion can be tracked via >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf >>> .org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dcore-2Dsenml-2Dmore-2Dunits_ballot_&d=DwIGaQ& >>> c=pqcuzKEN_84c78MOSc5_fw&r=UdGshIy7O85QbjoqbIdb_K7GJN4Vxe8yisqNq0oQtS >>> 4&m=1HSmPnFlr7WEiLKKLxMke_BtKIEXMq-xPdsDRzT3I1k&s=cS56g5iiq-KyNYhVVTz >>> l1c5-ZTApK90BoaWReY-zR3Y&e= >>> >>> >>> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. >>>
- [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more-uni… The IESG
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Pete Resnick
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Pete Resnick
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Ari Keränen
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Hytonen Harri
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Gillmore, Matthew
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Pete Resnick
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Ari Keränen
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Hytonen Harri
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Pete Resnick
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Pete Resnick
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-senml-more… Ari Keränen
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Ari Keränen
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Hytonen Harri
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Hytonen Harri
- Re: [core] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-cor… Cullen Jennings