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Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00

"Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)" <pkampana@cisco.com> Wed, 20 November 2019 21:37 UTC

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From: "Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)" <pkampana@cisco.com>
To: denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, curdle <curdle@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00
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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:37:20 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/curdle/3TQHRCxQd9tvIfdX1m-2p4Sa2Kg>
Subject: Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00
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Good points Denis. I hadn’t thought of these usecases.
These can increase the state management risk. We may be opening a can of worms by plainly adding Stateful HBS in SSH.

From: denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:18 PM
To: Panos Kampanakis (pkampana) <pkampana@cisco.com>
Cc: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; curdle <curdle@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00

SSH sessions are frequently established in a quick and short manner. Common examples:
- Git over SSH will establish a separate SSH session for each remote Git command.
- There exist file transfer clients (part of business applications and/or scripts) that will initiate a separate SSH session for each file they transfer via SFTP.
- There exist file transfer applications that will e.g. connect every 5-15 minutes to check for new files.

SSH is rife with short, ad-hoc sessions in practical usage; as well as long sessions that can last many days.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 11:47 AM Panos Kampanakis (pkampana) <pkampana@cisco.com<mailto:pkampana@cisco.com>> wrote:
I support the adoption of this draft.

I would like to see the addition of LMS along with XMSS in it. It is trivial to add both stateful HBS schemes in the draft.

I recommend more explicit and clear language in the Security Considerations regarding state management (HSMs, other techniques [1]). And an informative reference to NIST’s upcoming SP on Stateful HBS and [2]. Implementers need to be very careful with managing state of these signatures and the draft needs to make it clear. Also the security considerations need to make clear that SSH makes a good use-case for these signatures because SSH tunnels are usually not established in a “quick and short” fashion which would make stateful HBS even more risky because of the state management requirement.

Rgs,
Panos

[1]: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/357.pdf
[2] https://csrc.nist.gov/Projects/Stateful-Hash-Based-Signatures


From: Curdle <curdle-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:curdle-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Daniel Migault
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:38 AM
To: curdle <curdle@ietf.org<mailto:curdle@ietf.org>>
Subject: [Curdle] call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00

Hi,

This mail starts a call for adoption for draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss-00 XMSS public key algorithms for the Secure Shell (SSH) protocol. Please state on the mailing list whether you support the adoption of the draft or if you have any objection by December 5.

Yours,
Rich and Daniel

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mu-curdle-ssh-xmss/

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