Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward
Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Mon, 01 September 2014 11:16 UTC
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From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:16:39 +0200
To: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Cc: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>, "dart@ietf.org" <dart@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward
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This illustrates well the thought that media RTT is not a good concept - each media stream goes only one way.... On 1. september 2014 13:10:41 CEST, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org> wrote: >Ben, > >The guidance looks fine to me, but the explanatory text in the last >paragraph of Section 5.4 is perhaps not quite right. The text: > > This guidance may result in different DSCP markings for RTP streams > and RTCP receiver reports about those RTP streams. The resulting > variation in network QoS treatment by traffic direction could result > in unrepresentative round trip time (RTT) estimates that don't > correspond to consistent network QoS treatment in both directions. > RTCP receiver reports may be relatively infrequent (e.g., may be sent > only once per video frame rendered) and hence the resulting RTT > estimates are of limited utility for congestion control (although > they have other important uses, see [RFC3550]). For this reason, it > is not important that RTCP receiver reports receive the same network > QoS treatment as the RTP stream or streams being reported on. > >suggests that the RTT estimate derived from RTCP will be >unrepresentative, since it may not have consistent network QoS in each >direction. However, since the RTP media packets can use different QoS >in each direction, the RTCP also needs to do so, to be representative! >If the media used different QoS markings for different directions and >the RTCP used the same marking, the RTT estimate wouldn’t match that of >the media. > >I suggest the paragraph be changed to: > > This guidance may result in different DSCP markings for RTP streams > and the RTCP packets reporting on those RTP streams. The resulting > variation in network QoS treatment by traffic direction is necessary > to get representative round trip time (RTT) estimates that correspond >to the media path RTT. RTCP receiver reports may be relatively >infrequent >and hence the resulting RTT estimates are of limited utility for >congestion >control (although they have other important uses, see [RFC3550]). For >this >reason, it is important that RTCP receiver reports sent by an SSRC >receive >the same network QoS treatment as the RTP stream being sent by that >SSRC. > >Colin > > > > >On 31 Aug 2014, at 01:26, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote: >> Colin and Harald, >> >> I see David has submitted version 06. Can you verify that you are >okay with the language in this version? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> On Aug 29, 2014, at 4:55 PM, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org> wrote: >> >>> Without having seen the submitted version, this sounds okay. >>> >>> -- >>> Colin Perkins >>> http://csperkins.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Aug 2014, at 21:16, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks, David! >>>> >>>> Am I counting correctly that this would close the last substantive >open issue? If so, and if Harald and Colin confirm they are okay with >the change, we should be able to request publication for the upcoming >version, correct? >>>> >>>> (I see that Harald expressed support as I am typing this...) >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Ben. >>>> >>>>> On Aug 29, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Black, David <david.black@emc.com> >wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ok, I see a range of views from skepticism to outright opposition >... >>>>> >>>>> I'll delete the paragraph and reference to the multi-stream >optimization >>>>> draft and submit the resulting -06 version w/a change note that >any interaction >>>>> of DiffServ and RTCP multi-stream optimization will be dealt with >in the draft >>>>> about the latter. >>>>> >>>>> That submission won't happen tonight, as the network in the SAS >Lounge in >>>>> EWR isn't even close to what we're used to at IETF meetings :-). >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> --David >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2014 3:29 PM >>>>>> To: Colin Perkins >>>>>> Cc: Ben Campbell; Black, David; dart@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 08/29/2014 06:04 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>>>>>> On 29 Aug 2014, at 16:52, Harald Alvestrand ><harald@alvestrand.no> wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 08/29/2014 05:14 PM, Black, David wrote: >>>>>>>>> Harald, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm about to submit a -05 with the indication that the single >DSCP >>>>>> recommendation for SCTP and DCCP may be revised. The RTCP >multi-stream >>>>>> optimisation text will still be in there with Colin's >clarification about >>>>>> "received" streams. I'm about to vanish for about 3 weeks, but >could put in a >>>>>> revised -06 over the weekend if you can quickly convince Colin. >>>>>>>> Explicitly pinging Colin - Colin, are you arguing that the >sentence >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> RTCP multi-stream reporting optimizations for an RTP session >>>>>>>> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation] assume that >the RTP >>>>>>>> streams involved experience the same packet loss behavior. >This >>>>>>>> mechanism is highly inappropriate when the RTP streams involved >use >>>>>>>> different PHBs, even if those PHBs differ solely in drop >precedence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> should stay in the draft? >>>>>>> I was, but thinking again, I'm not so sure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think this recommendation is wrong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can't find anything in your latest messages that speak to >this particular >>>>>> point. >>>>>>>> You're one of the authors of -multi-stream, so you should be >able to speak >>>>>> clearly to the point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Can you clarify? >>>>>>> If I have several SSRCs, and receive several media streams, then >provided >>>>>> each of my SSRCs sees the exact same quality for each received >stream, then I >>>>>> can use the multi-stream-optimisation to reduce the number of >RTCP cross >>>>>> reports I send. The multi-stream-optimisation draft says that >already, and >>>>>> it's not clear that the DART drafts needs to say anything further >on the >>>>>> topic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Whether I use the same DSCP for all RTCP reports I send is, I >think, >>>>>> orthogonal to whether I use the multi-stream-optimisation. The >dart draft >>>>>> should possibly say that, but I'm not sure that's the sentence we >have above. >>>>>> I read the sentence above as saying flatly and unconditionally >"don't >>>>>> use multi-stream-optimization when the RTP streams have different >PHBs" >>>>>> - which means that if I want to use one PHB for audio and another >PHB >>>>>> for video, I can't use multi-stream-optimization. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd be sad if that was the case, *especially* if we can't figure >out any >>>>>> reason to make that recommendation. >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Dart mailing list >>> Dart@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dart >> > > > >-- >Colin Perkins >http://csperkins.org/ -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
- [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Colin Perkins
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Colin Perkins
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Colin Perkins
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Colin Perkins
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Colin Perkins
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Black, David
- Re: [Dart] draft-dart-dscp-rtp - way forward Ben Campbell