Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd
"Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com> Thu, 28 February 2019 12:58 UTC
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From: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:58:43 +0000
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Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd
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-- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast > -----Original Message----- > From: dbound <dbound-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 6:53 AM > To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>; dbound@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd > > > Hiya, > > Thanks for the good comments. > > On 28/02/2019 10:59, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Since this is the place, I read draft-brotman-rdbd-00 and have a few > > observations. > > > > I'm slightly concerned at the way this is being conceived, because I > > think it has a conceptual separation in it that is troublesome. It's > > found here: > > > > RDBD is intended to demonstrate a relationship between registered > > domains, not individual hostnames. That is to say that the > > relationship should exist between "example.com" and "dept- > > example.com", not "foo.example.com" and "bar.dept-example.com". > > > > The problem, of course, is that foo.example.com, bar.dept-example.com, > > and really.long.set.of.labels.example.com are all _perfectly good_ > > domains. Now, maybe what the above intends to communicate is that > > RDBD is intended to demonstrate a relationship between the owner name > > at an apex and all the subsidiary names in that zone (i.e. up until > > any subordinate zone cut), and the owner name at an apex and all the > > subsidiary names in _that_ zone. Alternatively, maybe what the above > > intends to communicate is that RDBD is intended to demonstrate a > > relationship between owner names immediately below a so-called public > > suffix. I can imagine use cases for either, though I am not sure > > they're as general purpose as people might think. > > I think that's Alex's text so I'll leave it to him to > explain:-) From my POV though, see my answer to Paul Wouters on the (lack of;- > ) semantics here. (That was on a different list but is at [1].) Not sure if that'll > clarify or muddy the waters though, so it may be easier to chat about this f2f in > Prague if we get a chance. > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/DaqhhnrNRSrIePbQTWDLCDuaw6k [Brotman, Alexander] From my perspective, I was looking to create a relationship for the registered domains (I couldn't find a good RFC to use a reference for this), so I believe your comment about the apex is correct. So looking to know that "example.com" and "dept-example.com" (or "example.com" and "example.co.uk", etc.) should have that link. > > > I am more than a little worried about the parent/secondary split. > > (Also, both of these are already well-used terms in the DNS, so I > > really strongly urge some other terms. We have enough trouble with > > overloading DNS terms without doing so with two of the most frequently > > used terms in DNS operations, particularly when this mixes terms from > > delegation and from zone transfers.) > > Fair point. Better terms welcome. If we don't get handed some, we'll try invent a > couple. > > I've noted this and a couple of other issues raised in the editor's version on > github. [2] (And btw, if there're other things from these mail threads I ought > note there, anyone can just ping me to add such.) > > [2] > https://github.com/abrotman/related-domains-by-dns/blob/master/rdbd.txt > > > It isn't clear to me, from the > > discussion, that it is obviously true in most of the use cases people > > have that one of the domains people want to talk about is "the main > > one". More importantly, it is quite likely that someone trying to > > query this will have a different idea about which is "main" than the > > domain operator, so if this isn't a fully bidirectional operation > > (which it's not in -00) there could easily be problems in use. (This > > is part of why SOPA was proposed to be two-way.) > > But if this stays unidirectional, one could always do the trick twice I think. So I'm > not sure I get why that'd be a problem? > (Assuming the syntax continues to allow that.) > > I'm also not sure if always-being-bidirectional is the right design myself, (see > above wrt lack of semantics) but if it were and didn't add a lot of complexity, I'd > be ok with it. > > > If you're going to do this with TXT records, then you definitely need > > an underscore label, or the apex name is going to be a mess. But that > > will mean that this won't work for DNAME. That consideration is part > > of why SOPA defined a new RRTYPE and put the RR at the name that was > > supposed to be related. > > Yep, fair enough. Personally I think a new RRTYPE is fine and will get a couple of > issues off the table so is likely the right thing to do. I think Alex is also ok with > that, in which case, we'll see about whacking out a -01 along those lines before > the I-D cutoff. (And if not, we'll continue to be rightly beaten up for yet more > abuse of TXT:-) > [Brotman, Alexander] I'm 100% okay with a new RRTYPE, and expected we would do so. I do apologize for not having that be properly created in -00, but wanted to get some comments on the -00 draft, and ideally a -01 before Prague that incorporates feedback from folks. > > I hope these comments are useful. I have limited cycles to spend on > > IETF stuff these days, but this was always a topic close to my heart > > (and I'm super annoyed the DBOUND WG failed), so I'll try to keep up. > > Excellent! > > Cheers, > S. > > > > > > A > >
- [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd? Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd? Jiankang Yao
- Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd? Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd Brotman, Alexander
- Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd John Levine