Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)

[János Farkas <[e-mail]>]

Hi Pascal,

The proposal is good.
Sorry, I missed it somehow.

Thank you,
Janos


On 12/18/2018 5:59 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>
> Hello János :
>
> The proposal on the table is to change the text as follows:
>
> Before:
>
> Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu],
>
>    [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART],
>
>    etc...) has shown that these applications need a some or all of a
>
>    suite of features that includes:
>
> after:
>
> The Deterministic Networking Use Cases [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cases]
>
>    document indicates that applications in multiple fields need some or
>
>    all of a suite of features that includes:
>
> The point is that the reference to 60802 should really be in section 3 
> of the use cases draft, where this and many other cases are referenced,
>
> Does that work? I’m ready to publish that change as -09.
>
> All the best,
>
> Pascal
>
> *From:*János Farkas <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* mardi 18 décembre 2018 17:23
> *To:* Karl Weber <[e-mail]>; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) 
> <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* Alissa Cooper <[e-mail]>; Lou Berger 
> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; 
> Mirja Kühlewind <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; 
> [e-mail]; IESG <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on 
> draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)
>
> Hi,
>
> Adding a reference to IEC/IEEE 60802 is fine and would be good. 
> However, we should not go beyond that at this stage with the problem 
> statement draft.
>
> Regards,
> Janos
>
> On 12/7/2018 2:55 PM, Karl Weber wrote:
>
>     I would reference to
>     https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/
>     industrial use case document, which covers also aspects beyond TSN.
>
>     It is well accepted by a larger group of experts (IEC _and_ IEEE)
>     and covers quite a few items found in the list below.
>
>     But this is my preferred choice.
>
>     *From:*Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:[e-mail]]
>     *Sent:* Freitag, 7. Dezember 2018 14:29
>     *To:* Karl Weber <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     *Cc:* Alissa Cooper <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Lou Berger <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>     [e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Mirja
>     Kühlewind <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>     Janos Farkas <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; IESG <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on
>     draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)
>
>     Unsure what you are really proposing Karl.
>
>     The claim is correct, automation and AVD want detnet and tsn for
>     applications like control loops, motion detection and propagation
>     of digital time/phase sensitive signals. Now, the list of pointers
>     is agreeably incomplete.
>
>     Could you be more specific on proposed changes ? Are you missing a
>      reference you would like to see?
>
>     As it goes the text predates all the work we did in the use cases
>     draft. Proposal is to replace all the links you quoted by just one
>     on the detnet use cases. Would that work for you ?
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Pascal
>
>
>     Le 7 déc. 2018 à 11:44, Karl Weber <[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>> a écrit :
>
>
>     Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys.
>     Hans Beckhoff
>     Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075
>
>         Dear all,
>
>         I think that the citation
>
>         Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video
>
>            networks (e.g.,  [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
>
>             [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …
>
>         _ Is not very helpful_.
>
>         Followed by a list of requirements is very misleading, as many
>         of the key points in the list (e.g. reliability parameter)
>         cannot be found in the documents.
>
>         Quite a few widely accepted organizations with networks
>         related to this requirements are not listed like CPLA/CCLink,
>         CANopen, Sercos and EtherCAT.
>
>         EtherCAT has a draft profile for TSN with a Liaison to IEEE
>         802.1 other do not have that.
>
>         AVnu does not have its own network but uses AVB/TSN.
>
>         IEC62439 is a standard but Profinet is also a standard
>         61158-10 as well as many of the others.
>
>         Sometimes organizations sometimes networks or both
>
>         A few of the links are broken or do not show substantial
>         technical information but marketing material.
>
>         Suggest to provide a better base for the requirement or use
>         other documents such as industrial use cases from the joint
>         IEEE/IEC project.
>
>         Karl
>
>         *From:*detnet [mailto:[e-mail]] *On Behalf Of
>         *Alissa Cooper
>         *Sent:* Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2018 15:40
>         *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>         *Cc:* Lou Berger <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>;
>         [e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>; Mirja
>         Kühlewind <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>;
>         Janos Farkas <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>; IESG <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on
>         draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)
>
>         Thanks, the changes LGTM.
>
>         Alissa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl.
>         Phys. Hans Beckhoff
>         Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh
>         HRA 7075
>
>             On Dec 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>             <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>             Many thanks, Alissa,
>
>             To Mirja (cc) 's point I modified the bullet and the
>             previous one as follows:
>
>             o  provide additional reliability through redundancy, in
>             particular
>
>             with packet Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering
>             Functions
>
>             (PREOF) where the former may generate an out-of-order delivery
>
>             that may need to be corrected by the latter;
>
>             o  indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with
>             the flows,
>
>             this is needed for flows that require PREOF in order to
>             isolate
>
>             duplicates and reorder in the end;
>
>             Please see below:
>
>             > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>             > COMMENT:
>
>             > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>             > 
>
>             > I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication
>             of this document. I
>
>             > agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the
>             document contains forward-
>
>             > looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by
>             events in the near
>
>             > future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need
>             to do in Section 1.
>
>             > 
>
>             */[PT>]/*Could we reword to something like: “At the time
>             of this writing, the expectation is thatthe IETF will …”
>
>             The sentence would become
>
>             At the time of this writing, the expectation is thatonce the
>
>                abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will specify
>             the signaling
>
>                elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging
>             elements to
>
>                be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded
>             along that path.
>
>             The expectation is alsothat IETF will specify the necessary
>
>                protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF
>
>                technologies, to implement the selected model.
>
>             > Nit:
>
>             > 
>
>             > Section 2 says: "Considerable experience
>             ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu],
>
>             > [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and
>             [WirelessHART], etc...)"
>
>             > 
>
>             > It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an
>             enumerated list of citations,
>
>             > or a description of what the other experience is that
>             isn't explicitly listed.
>
>             > 
>
>             *//*
>
>             */[PT>] /*Agreed ; what about :
>
>                 Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video
>
>                networks (e.g.,  [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
>
>                 [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …
>
>             *//*
>
>             Please let me know if all this works.
>
>             Again, many thanks Alissa !
>
>             Pascal
>