Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@mail2.ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@mail2.ietf.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38809E151E6 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2025 16:08:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BOUND_DIGITS_15=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=smu-ac-kr.20230601.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TIImhYp1BXG2 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2025 16:08:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA7439E151CB for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2025 16:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-596ba07504dso4061888e87.1 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2025 16:08:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=smu-ac-kr.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1766448512; x=1767053312; darn=ietf.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/l4dvUmVnoZMR9LIONvLNFHnN+Rc+77fmk246c3WQxw=; b=iOG8gufPIHaGLMyzwZ7lIO5ovpAzLucuQFtoZ8LkjDs66VMvJhPEydg+9FxDUiVshA xHGiJJf6ke0Hjyys8Vub9mhzqEu1MVsqsV4r07sQIzswGUy1ViG9pxdiP2BzNQHkR+bA nRW9HnL9pfayP7oLu9NFf0kra3rm37YXc9CeuxCi/tNu+2DVXTEcLYDhbqR58nesjxCa FpzsSB0V/9cdLWusG2hlCeJgauU6H/jiZe6Xh5Qlwjwe1EynDrC7AMYFfG/IEH+gMUkV jtf3KUqBIWpgnLTa4y4PxmNbgxluOeG41KLggk7njpsx8IuOlu2LHv6QgGfytAAm6bN2 DWSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1766448512; x=1767053312; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=/l4dvUmVnoZMR9LIONvLNFHnN+Rc+77fmk246c3WQxw=; b=fwAm7u77NZTxXilo3kzDazwUEaSltXvC/4PPO9Xkcv6cbxvtGtATLaj/ia3r09uWpu 7JcfUaIz3YAC2nqIzIrUAWRaz8ePLw/pSOVi2y0/GYOndhsID6DqVQCfHfpigboc/ftc FyzPp2+DIViUi9FP6riAofbzks1rMe9iuBVrxsEGxPxEEzPoJwFrwyx+/4qZ0lyo3jdI nYRu1I7vF9J74FmldkmQ1TCrM93SvQNYfUmAa6AejVFEp7MtaMI6MpU4CVAGjnmS0u5k /HHh2MRwx+EW4rzy+sWEiqKetjlgJo6xysvDy5SyP3Let/9Kt3W4ZxqiFPXKvYQKkotD ZAIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy8AISKP1CIjAlKBlyw93JPOYS7rOe+wjtmkCe4oOO7lFR+1D6n MEfpFc5BlEjsD/Q8G4dYMfmsw4wIBWw3b8e4IF7Wxi/1s2nZ8DpAyfKSIdAVhiQHTTqzkeD+Z1F MdgLDxrywuwtnR2H1LRdbQlBerelfSey/VJ4OIkLFXJiveZ9pQUOr2IM= X-Gm-Gg: AY/fxX4Rk/+AgANBVFD2RwOiDB2ZK4uCZfaPBFWCej3H9tWJYL3SH2SLrrkujTDF1jm s2irL1VnkVtH8jJMvRyZjpmVIHGLxTe7F+F1SdRmuq7wpBhzNJiM8yqM6abDUQsQjFy7m7CCCIo zDOe6PVfrt4UuURk5uc0hGROkMjsEC3eN5wuJToytHSbMXGNEvv3xbtYGSwUwOSadzqO+zeqMiF KinYDFdpZtwtemw11zM4wF+gNUKpvaf2KlIQ9QA92OFU1QkGJOxAooxAjMpF5wO/mU80TJpAQpf JckMkd7c X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGLjeBOn0nXAOOY67tTShwD695ulPdjofPb+5S58FMA4TirSe1tP0sdDLRX5KKEWL3crHHjLBlWR6kG+4rdiHs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:2313:b0:597:d758:b29 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-59a17d8f791mr4280534e87.20.1766448511845; Mon, 22 Dec 2025 16:08:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jinoo Joung Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 09:08:21 +0900 X-Gm-Features: AQt7F2oWK_5PtB18oygjVpXOkSdrmpFETsq3MRngqvRSJ8Jn0tM3s6SpgHF4J2g Message-ID: To: Mike Blanche Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001016030646935893" Message-ID-Hash: 2ISZSYKBONXGMMHSLVCUSGZL7XRZQO2B X-Message-ID-Hash: 2ISZSYKBONXGMMHSLVCUSGZL7XRZQO2B X-MailFrom: jjoung@smu.ac.kr X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-detnet.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: DetNet WG , DetNet Chairs X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BDetnet=5D_Re=3A_WG_adoption_poll=3A_joung-detnet-stateless-fair?= =?utf-8?q?-queuing-05?= List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001016030646935893 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Mike, thanks for the comment regarding the work in ITU-T. I understand your concern. Hello WG and Mike, The C-SCORE draft, as indicated in the version 6, will have the following details in the future, once accepted as the WG draft. 1) MPLS and IP specific protocol details: This includes the header fields/formats, interactions between nodes and between control/data planes. 2) Implementation issues regarding the priority queue, which is currently required to sort the packets in FT orders: This includes an approximation technique based on strict priority schedulers. Y.3129 is focused on the requirements and provides theoretical justifications but the C-SCORE draft targets on the solution. Some framework texts are covered in both. But they are necessary information for readers in order to understand the design principles of the solution in the C-SCORE draft. C-SCORE is not a new invention. It is an outcome of the numerous researches conducted during late '90 ~ early '00s, which was the peak period of Internet research. There are more than hundreds of papers that are related to the fair queuing, after all. I believe it is worth being standardized by such virtues: 1) flow isolation capability, which protects from other flows' join/leave, bursts, or even malicious behaviours 2) scalability due to its stateless nature 3) flexibility from network asymmetry such as link capacity variations and uneven propagation delays 4) simple admission criteria, which allows incremental flow acceptance, without modifying existing network setup 5) small average delay due to work conserving nature, just to mention a few. :-) Best regards, Jinoo (on behalf of authors) On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 12:10=E2=80=AFAM Mike Blanche wrote: > > Hi all, > > This proposal appears very similar to ITU-T Recommendation Y.3129, which = I > believe was developed by some of the same authors. > > https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-Y.3129-202404-I/en > > The abstract text of the I-D is virtually identical to the summary of > Y.3129. In addition, significant parts of the content are very similar - > e.g. parts of section 6.3 of the draft are word-for-word the same as part= s > of section 8 of the ITU-T Recommendation. > > The ITU-T Recommendation is missing from the draft's References section. > > I am unclear why we are considering duplicating work that appears to be > already completed at the ITU. > > Best regards, > > Mike > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 at 15:49, Janos Farkas 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> This email begins a 4-week adoption poll for: >> >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-joung-detnet-stateless-fair-queui= ng/05/ >> >> >> >> No IPR has been disclosed for this document. >> >> >> >> Please voice your support or technical objections to adoption on the >> >> list by the end of the day (any time zone) January 2nd. >> >> >> >> As a reminder this document is part of the larger set of adoption calls >> >> of the documents discussed at IETF 124: >> >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-joung-detnet-stateless-fair-queui= ng/05 >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peng-detnet-deadline-based-forwar= ding/18 >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peng-detnet-packet-timeslot-mecha= nism/13 >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-detnet-tcqf/09 >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-detnet-glbf/06 >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ryoo-detnet-ontime-forwarding/04 >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ryoo-detnet-nscore/02 >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> J=C3=A1nos (as Co-chair) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list -- detnet@ietf.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to detnet-leave@ietf.org >> > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list -- detnet@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to detnet-leave@ietf.org > --0000000000001016030646935893 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Mike, thanks for the comment regardin= g the work in ITU-T.
I understand your concern.

Hello WG and Mike= ,

The C-SCORE draft, as indicated in the version 6, will have = the following details in the future, once accepted as the WG draft.
1) M= PLS and IP specific protocol details: This includes the header fields/forma= ts, interactions between nodes and between control/data planes.
2) Imple= mentation issues regarding the priority queue, which is currently required = to sort the packets in FT orders: This includes an approximation technique = based on strict priority schedulers.

Y.3129 is focused on the requir= ements and provides theoretical justifications but the C-SCORE draft target= s on the solution.
Some framework texts are covered in both. But they ar= e necessary information for readers in order to understand the design princ= iples of the solution in the C-SCORE draft.

C-SCORE is not a new inv= ention.
It is an outcome of the numerous researches conducted during la= te '90 ~ early '00s, which was the peak period of Internet research= .
There are more than hundreds of papers that are related to the fair q= ueuing, after all.

I believe it is worth being sta= ndardized by such virtues:
1) flow isolation capability, which protects = from other flows' join/leave, bursts, or even malicious behaviours
2= ) scalability due to its stateless nature
3) flexibility from network as= ymmetry such as link capacity variations and uneven propagation delays
4= ) simple admission criteria, which allows incremental flow acceptance, with= out modifying existing network setup
5) small average delay due to work = conserving nature,
just to=C2=A0mention a few. :-)

Best regards,
Jinoo (on behalf of authors)



On Fri, Dec 12, 202= 5 at 12:10=E2=80=AFAM Mike Blanche <mike-ietf@blanche.org> wrote:

Hi all,

This proposal appears very similar t= o ITU-T Recommendation Y.3129, which I believe was developed by some of the= same authors.


The abstract text of the I-D= is virtually identical to the summary of Y.3129. In addition, significant = parts of the content are very similar - e.g.=C2=A0parts of section 6.3 of t= he draft are word-for-word the same as parts of section 8 of the ITU-T Reco= mmendation.=C2=A0

The ITU-T Recommendation is miss= ing from the draft's References section.

I am = unclear why we are considering duplicating work that appears to be already = completed at the ITU.=C2=A0

Best regards,

Mike

On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 at 15:49, Janos Farkas <Ja= nos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0<= /span>

This email begins a 4= -week adoption poll for:

=C2=A0<= /span>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-joung-detnet-stateless-= fair-queuing/05/

=C2=A0<= /span>

No IPR has been discl= osed for this document.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Please voice your sup= port or technical objections to adoption on the

list by the end of th= e day (any time zone) January 2nd.

=C2=A0<= /span>

As a reminder this do= cument is part of the larger set of adoption calls

of the documents disc= ussed at IETF 124:

=C2=A0<= /span>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-joung-detnet-stateless-f= air-queuing/05

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peng-detnet-deadline-b= ased-forwarding/18

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peng-detnet-packet-tim= eslot-mechanism/13

https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-detnet-tcqf/09

https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-detnet-glbf/06

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ryoo-detnet-ontime-forwarding/= 04

https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ryoo-detnet-nscore/02

=C2=A0<= /span>

Thank you,<= /u>

J=C3=A1n= os (as Co-chair)

=C2=A0<= /span>

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list -- detnet@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to detnet-leave@ietf.org
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list -- detnet@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to detnet-leave@ietf.org
--0000000000001016030646935893--