Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)

[János Farkas <[e-mail]>]

Hi,

Adding a reference to IEC/IEEE 60802 is fine and would be good. However, 
we should not go beyond that at this stage with the problem statement draft.

Regards,
Janos


On 12/7/2018 2:55 PM, Karl Weber wrote:
>
> I would reference to 
> https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/ 
> industrial use case document, which covers also aspects beyond TSN.
>
> It is well accepted by a larger group of experts (IEC _and_ IEEE) and 
> covers quite a few items found in the list below.
>
> But this is my preferred choice.
>
> *From:*Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* Freitag, 7. Dezember 2018 14:29
> *To:* Karl Weber <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* Alissa Cooper <[e-mail]>; Lou Berger 
> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; 
> Mirja Kühlewind <[e-mail]>; Janos Farkas 
> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; 
> IESG <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on 
> draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)
>
> Unsure what you are really proposing Karl.
>
> The claim is correct, automation and AVD want detnet and tsn for 
> applications like control loops, motion detection and propagation of 
> digital time/phase sensitive signals. Now, the list of pointers is 
> agreeably incomplete.
>
> Could you be more specific on proposed changes ? Are you missing a 
>  reference you would like to see?
>
> As it goes the text predates all the work we did in the use cases 
> draft. Proposal is to replace all the links you quoted by just one on 
> the detnet use cases. Would that work for you ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Pascal
>
>
> Le 7 déc. 2018 à 11:44, Karl Weber <[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> a écrit :
>
>
> Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. 
> Hans Beckhoff
> Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075
>
>     Dear all,
>
>     I think that the citation
>
>     Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video
>
>        networks (e.g.,  [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
>
>         [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …
>
>     _ Is not very helpful_.
>
>     Followed by a list of requirements is very misleading, as many of
>     the key points in the list (e.g. reliability parameter) cannot be
>     found in the documents.
>
>     Quite a few widely accepted organizations with networks related to
>     this requirements are not listed like CPLA/CCLink, CANopen, Sercos
>     and EtherCAT.
>
>     EtherCAT has a draft profile for TSN with a Liaison to IEEE 802.1
>     other do not have that.
>
>     AVnu does not have its own network but uses AVB/TSN.
>
>     IEC62439 is a standard but Profinet is also a standard 61158-10 as
>     well as many of the others.
>
>     Sometimes organizations sometimes networks or both
>
>     A few of the links are broken or do not show substantial technical
>     information but marketing material.
>
>     Suggest to provide a better base for the requirement or use other
>     documents such as industrial use cases from the joint IEEE/IEC
>     project.
>
>     Karl
>
>     *From:*detnet [mailto:[e-mail]] *On Behalf Of
>     *Alissa Cooper
>     *Sent:* Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2018 15:40
>     *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>     *Cc:* Lou Berger <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>;
>     [e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Mirja
>     Kühlewind <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>;
>     Janos Farkas <[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; IESG <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on
>     draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)
>
>     Thanks, the changes LGTM.
>
>     Alissa
>
>
>
>
>
>     Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys.
>     Hans Beckhoff
>     Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA
>     7075
>
>         On Dec 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>         <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>         Many thanks, Alissa,
>
>         To Mirja (cc) 's point I modified the bullet and the previous
>         one as follows:
>
>         o  provide additional reliability through redundancy, in
>         particular
>
>         with packet Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions
>
>         (PREOF) where the former may generate an out-of-order delivery
>
>         that may need to be corrected by the latter;
>
>         o  indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with the flows,
>
>         this is needed for flows that require PREOF in order to isolate
>
>         duplicates and reorder in the end;
>
>         Please see below:
>
>         > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         > COMMENT:
>
>         > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         > 
>
>         > I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication of
>         this document. I
>
>         > agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the document
>         contains forward-
>
>         > looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by
>         events in the near
>
>         > future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need to
>         do in Section 1.
>
>         > 
>
>         */[PT>]/*Could we reword to something like: “At the time of
>         this writing, the expectation is thatthe IETF will …”
>
>         The sentence would become
>
>         At the time of this writing, the expectation is thatonce the
>
>            abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will specify the
>         signaling
>
>            elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging
>         elements to
>
>            be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along
>         that path.
>
>         The expectation is alsothat IETF will specify the necessary
>
>            protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF
>
>            technologies, to implement the selected model.
>
>         > Nit:
>
>         > 
>
>         > Section 2 says: "Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu],
>
>         > [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and
>         [WirelessHART], etc...)"
>
>         > 
>
>         > It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an
>         enumerated list of citations,
>
>         > or a description of what the other experience is that isn't
>         explicitly listed.
>
>         > 
>
>         *//*
>
>         */[PT>] /*Agreed ; what about :
>
>             Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video
>
>            networks (e.g.,  [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
>
>             [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …
>
>         *//*
>
>         Please let me know if all this works.
>
>         Again, many thanks Alissa !
>
>         Pascal
>