Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Fri, 16 October 2020 15:53 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>
CC: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, dhcwg <dhcwg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:53:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements
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Eduard, > -----Original Message----- > From: Vasilenko Eduard [mailto:vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com] > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 12:20 AM > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; dhcwg <dhcwg@ietf.org> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay- > requirements > > Hi Fred, > I do not fully agree to you. We are talking past each other, and one of us does not have a clear understanding of the issue at the heart of the discussion which I see as a forwarding plane issue having nothing to do with the control plane. Thanks - Fred > Yes, such data plane problem (like you described) could happen in the ordinary routing environment. > Theoretically, it could be created by routing protocol (in control plane). > Practically, all routing protocols are robust enough for such situation not to happen - they do have some means to synchronize states > (at least tracking "neighbors"). > > But it is not related to DHCP-PD discussion. > DHCP-PD is stateless without information synchronization after link up. Even "link up" is not possible to track if it is multi-hop through > bridge. > It is easy to create such amnesia: just push power button on the stub router. > > Hence, I do not understand the point of your generalization. > It is not proper generalization, because it does not work in all environments. > Especially it is important that it does not work in DHCP-PD environment. > > Eduard > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Templin (US), Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com] > > Sent: 15 октября 2020 г. 22:31 > > To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> > > Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Michael Richardson > > <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; dhcwg <dhcwg@ietf.org> > > Subject: RE: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors > > regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements > > > > Eduard, > > > > Thanks for your message. The point I was trying to make is that if the upstream > > router R is convinced - through whatever means - that the downstream stub > > router S holds an IPv6 prefix such as 2001:db8:a:b::/64, then it will forward all > > IPv6 packets with destination address from that prefix to S *even if the packets > > originated from S*. > > That is not a new issue brought about by DHCPv6, since it is a forwarding plane > > issue and not a control plane issue. > > > > Fred > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Vasilenko Eduard [mailto:vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 12:12 PM > > > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > > > Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Michael > > > Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; dhcwg <dhcwg@ietf.org> > > > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay > > > Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay- requirements > > > > > > Hi Fred, > > > You need the challenge. OK. I have it for you. > > > > > > Typical routing protocols would distribute to the "stub" router information > > about prefixes "somewhere in the network". > > > Prefixes from local interfaces are inserted into the routing table in > > > the very persistent way:-) > > > > > > DHCP-PD would distribute to the "stub" router information about prefixes that > > should become local/interface prefixes on the "stub". > > > Non-graceful reload could lead to amnesia on the "stub". Then it could attack > > its own uplink. > > > It is a new problem. Because DHCP-PD does play the role of "automatic > > provisioning system", not routing protocol. > > > The problem could be called "non-consistent routers configuration". > > > The fact that proper protocol for prefix distribution should be very > > > similar to routing protocol - is the secondary here (it is implementation), > > because the problem itself is new. > > > > > > Eduard > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), > > > > Fred L > > > > Sent: 15 октября 2020 г. 1:37 > > > > To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> > > > > Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Michael > > > > Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; dhcwg <dhcwg@ietf.org> > > > > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay > > > > Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements > > > > > > > > > I note that the lack of “challenge” does not mean anyone agrees. > > Agreement > > > > needs to be affirmative. > > > > > > > > Fair enough, Bob; here is the assertion I made that I was referring to: > > > > > > > > + BTW, I am still waiting to hear how this concern is in any way > > > > + specific to prefix delegation, since it seems to be generic to any > > > > + case of having a “stub” router that maliciously attacks its own > > > > + upstream link – no matter how that router negotiates its prefixes > > > > + with > > > > upstream network nodes. > > > > > > > > Do the individuals CC'd on this list agree that this is a generic > > > > IPv6 issue and not a DHCPv6-PD-specific issue? > > > > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:28 PM > > > > > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > > > > > Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Michael Richardson > > > > > <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; dhcwg <dhcwg@ietf.org>; IPv6 List > > > > > <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org> > > > > > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 > > > > > Relay Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay- > > > > > requirements > > > > > > > > > > I note that the lack of “challenge” does not mean anyone agrees. > > Agreement > > > > needs to be affirmative. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 14, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Templin (US), Fred L > > > > <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob, several messages back it was established that the issue at > > > > > > the heart of this discussion is not specific to DHCPv6 nor DHCPv6-PD. > > > > > > Instead, it is an issue that is common to any situation where > > > > > > there are multiple "stub" IPv6 routers on a downstream link from > > > > > > a "default" IPv6 router, no matter how the routing information > > > > > > is established or maintained. So far, no one has challenged my > > > > > > assertion that this is a generic (and not a DHCPv6-PD-specific) > > > > > > IPv6 issue and > > > > I have been waiting to see if anyone wants to challenge that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] > > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:47 PM > > > > > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > > > > > >> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Michael Richardson > > > > > >> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; dhcwg <dhcwg@ietf.org>; IPv6 List > > > > > >> <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 > > > > > >> Relay Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay- > > > > > >> requirements > > > > > >> > > > > > >> With my chair hat on, is there a reason why this discussion is > > > > > >> being copied > > > > to the 6MAN w.g.? 6MAN doesn’t maintain DHCP > > > > > related > > > > > >> items. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Please remove ipv6@ietf.org from this thread. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Bob > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> On Oct 14, 2020, at 12:19 PM, Templin (US), Fred L > > > > <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Hi Michael, > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>>> From: Michael Richardson [mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca] > > > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 11:58 AM > > > > > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > > > > > >>>> Cc: ianfarrer@gmx.com; Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>; dhcwg > > > > > >>>> <dhcwg@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man > > > > > >>>> <ipv6@ietf.org> > > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to > > > > > >>>> DHCPv6 Relay Implementors regarding draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd- > > > > > >> relay- > > > > > >>>> requirements > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > > >>>>> Michael, what I was referring to below as "failure" is the > > > > > >>>>> proxy case when there is an L2 proxy P between the client > > > > > >>>>> and relay (e.g., RFC489). There > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> RFC4389 describes an ND Proxy. > > > > > >>>> Is that really an L2 proxy? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Yes, I believe it is an L2 proxy. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> It seems like it also must be contain either an L2-bridge, or > > > > > >>>> must have the L3-routing table entries if it would really be > > > > > >>>> capable of passing DHCPv6-PD prefixes through it. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> The only thing it has that includes L3 information is neighbor > > > > > >>> cache entries that keep track of the client's actual L2 > > > > > >>> address on the downstream link segment, but rewrites the > > > > > >>> client's L2 address to its own L2 address when forwarding onto > > > > > >>> an upstream link segment. (In the reverse direction, it > > > > > >>> receives packets destined to its own L2 address but the > > > > > >>> client's L3 address on the upstream link segment, then > > > > > >>> rewrites the L2 address to the client's L2 address when > > > > > >>> forwarding onto the downstream link segment.) > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> Can you explain how such a device would normally work for a > > > > > >>>> client device A,B,C,D doing DHCPv6-PD through it? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Sure. A sends a DHCPv6 Solicit using its IPv6 link-local > > > > > >>> address as the source, and its L2 address as the link-layer > > > > > >>> source. The proxy converts the link-layer source to its own L2 > > > > > >>> address when forwarding the DHCPv6 solicit onto the upstream > > > > > >>> link. When the > > > > > >>> DHCPv6 Reply comes back, the IPv6 destination is that of > > > > > >>> client A, but the > > > > link-layer destination is the L2 address of the proxy. > > > > > >>> The proxy then converts the L2 destination to the address of > > > > > >>> client A and forwards it on to the client. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> And is the failure one where the router "R" fails to drop > > > > > >>>> traffic it should, one where the router "R" drops traffic that it > > shouldn't? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> I was thinking more along the lines of the latter; if the only > > > > > >>> way that A has for talking to B, C, D, etc. is by going > > > > > >>> through R, it wouldn't work if R was unconditionally dropping > > everything. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Thanks - Fred > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > >>>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca> . o O ( IPv6 IøT > > > > consulting ) > > > > > >>>> Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >>> ---- > > > > > >>> -- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org > > > > > >>> Administrative Requests: > > > > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >>> ---- > > > > > >>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative > > > > Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors reg… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Question to DHCPv6 Relay I… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Question to DHCPv6 Relay I… otroan
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Question to DHCPv6 Relay I… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Question to DHCPv6 Relay I… otroan
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Question to DHCPv6 Relay I… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Question to DHCPv6 Relay I… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Question to DHCPv6 Relay I… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Rel… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Rel… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Ole Troan
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bjørn Mork
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Ole Troan
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bjørn Mork
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Rel… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] Question to DHCPv6 Relay Implementors… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Ted Lemon
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Ted Lemon
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … Philip Homburg
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] Re: Question to DH… Bob Hinden
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] Re: Question to DH… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] Re: Question to DH… Bob Hinden
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] Re: Question to DH… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] Re: Question to DH… Bob Hinden
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] Re: Question to DH… Michael Richardson
- [dhcwg] how do routers with DHCPv6 relays learn w… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] Re: Question to DH… Bob Hinden
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … otroan
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … Timothy Winters
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] Re: Question to DHCPv6 Relay … Ted Lemon
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dhcwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] Re: Question t… Ms. Li HUANG
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Michael Richardson
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Jen Linkova
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Timothy Winters
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… Bernie Volz (volz)
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… ianfarrer
- Re: [dhcwg] [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Question to DH… ianfarrer