Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

[Benoit Claise <[e-mail]>]

Dear all,

On consensus, here is a good link: 
http://www.ietf.org/tao.html#getting.things.done
Note that the WG chairs are the ones who must be evaluating the 
consensus, even rough.

Regards, Benoit
>
> Hi Susan,
>
> I do care about comments from other but we need to move on.
>
> My decision is based on the following: from a technical point of view, 
> there is no issue if we define this AVP as required. From a protocol 
> aspect, it is cleaner as a report ALWAYS applies to a given type. 
> Default value was considered as sub-optimal by Jouni, Ben, Steve, 
> Maria Cruz (who has triggered this issue) and myself.
>
> Now, about the process, a 100% is not required to move forward. As it 
> is not possible to get consensus on this issue, I use my prerogative 
> to pick one solution, the one that seems to be the best solution at 
> this stage, to be able to close the discussion at this stage and 
> produce the draft that we need.
>
> After, it is always possible to challenge again the content of the 
> draft if there is still concern.
>
> Benoit, the Area Director, is copied. It is not a putsch. Just 
> administrative way agreed within IETF to be able to move forward a WG 
> draft, which is the ultimate goal of everyone I think.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel.
>
> *De :*Shishufeng (Susan) [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 26 mars 2014 08:06
> *À :* Shishufeng (Susan); MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; Jouni 
> Korhonen
> *Cc :* [e-mail]
> *Objet :* RE: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
> Hello Lionel,
>
> Further clarification:
>
> I don't agree with this, not ok to everyone as you said.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
> *From:*Shishufeng (Susan) [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:56 PM
> *To:* [e-mail]; Steve Donovan; Jouni Korhonen
> *Cc:* [e-mail]
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
> Hello Lionel,
>
> I don't understand it.
>
> Please clarify if you care about other people's comments.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
> *From:*[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:44 PM
> *To:* Steve Donovan; Jouni Korhonen; Shishufeng (Susan)
> *Cc:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
> As chair and temporary doc shepherd,
>   
> Please stop this thread for now.
>   
> As mandatory/required is ok for everyone (even if useless in certain case), let use it for now.
>   
> Lionel
>   
>   
> "Shishufeng (Susan)" <[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>> a écrit :
>   
>
> Hello Steve,
>
> Thanks for clarifying the IETF procedure. I'm not familiar with it, 
> while I know the draft is mainly for 3GPP use, that's why we 3GPP 
> delegates are deeply involved in this specific discussion. If most of 
> 3GPP people think it is not so needed I couldn't understand why it 
> shall be mandatory.
>
> From technical point of view, in the case realm based report type is 
> not needed, nothing wrong without this AVP, and even better and cleaner.
>
> And you ever said you have preference but ok with either way forward, 
> i.e., make it mandatory or optional. Then let's move on with the draft 
> as it is on this point, if you agree.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
> *From:*Steve Donovan [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:39 PM
> *To:* Shishufeng (Susan); Jouni Korhonen
> *Cc:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
> Susan,
>
> We have not been following a process of determining consensus based on 
> a majority of companies expressing a preference.  It is also the case 
> that, in the IETF, companies do not contribute, individuals contribute.
>
> In addition, if we did take a "vote" on this one, I'm not sure which 
> side would actually have a majority.
>
> We might need to change our process to speed things up, but right now 
> we have been striving for true consensus where everyone agrees.  Note 
> that this doesn't mean everyone agrees with the technical reasoning 
> behind the decision.  There have been many cases where agreement is 
> reached because it was more important to get something finished then 
> to win a technical argument.
>
> If we can't start moving a little faster then we will likely need to 
> change to rough consensus, where the measure is that most everyone 
> agrees.  However, in the IETF, even this is not a voting process.  If 
> things are close to 50-50 in opinions then the correct process is to 
> continue to discuss the technical merits of each alternative until 
> rough consensus is reached.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> On 3/25/14, 2:00 AM, Shishufeng (Susan) wrote:
>
>     Hi Steve,
>
>     As I know, majority companies expressed preference to keep the AVP
>     as optional and keep the texts as they are. You have preference to
>     have it explicitly but ok with either way. That's how I assumed we
>     reached consensus.
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>     Susan
>
>     *From:*Steve Donovan [mailto:[e-mail]]
>     *Sent:* Monday, March 24, 2014 8:26 PM
>     *To:* Shishufeng (Susan); Jouni Korhonen
>     *Cc:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>     Susan,
>
>     We are in the middle of the discussion and have not yet reached
>     consensus.
>
>     I agree with Jouni on making it explicit.  Either way, we should
>     try to make a decision quickly.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 3/23/14 10:59 PM, Shishufeng (Susan) wrote:
>
>         Hello Jouni,
>
>           
>
>         I assume we had a lot of discussion on this and reached consensus to keep it as it is in the draft.
>
>           
>
>         Best Regards,
>
>         Susan
>
>           
>
>           
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:[e-mail]]
>
>         Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:38 AM
>
>         To: Steve Donovan
>
>         Cc:[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>           
>
>           
>
>         Lets have it explicit then. Use '<' and '>' to make the position fixed.
>
>           
>
>         - Jouni
>
>           
>
>         On Mar 19, 2014, at 1:29 AM, Steve Donovan<[e-mail]>  <mailto:[e-mail]>  wrote:
>
>           
>
>             I'm ok with either direction but generally lean toward being explicit.
>
>               
>
>             Do we have other opinions?
>
>               
>
>             Steve
>
>             On 3/18/14 12:16 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>                 Hello,
>
>                 I think the agreement tendency is the contrary: OC-Report-Type is not required, while default value is Host. i.e. it will remain as it is now in the draft.
>
>                 This may be of some advantage for some applications that may only use Host, as long as they may never generate Realm reports.
>
>                 If there is consensus on this, I will go with this.
>
>                 Best regards
>
>                 /MCruz
>
>                   
>
>                 From: DiME [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>
>                 Sent: martes, 18 de marzo de 2014 17:47
>
>                 To:[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                   
>
>                 All,
>
>                   
>
>                 Do we have consensus that the OC-Report-Type AVP is required?
>
>                   
>
>                 If so then one change would be as indicated in the syntax definition proposed by Lionel.  We would also remove wording on the default value.
>
>                   
>
>                 Jouni,
>
>                   
>
>                 How do we indicate a fixed position for an AVP?
>
>                   
>
>                 I presonally don't see this as critical but we can add this requirement if there is consensus.
>
>                   
>
>                 Regards,
>
>                   
>
>                 Steve
>
>                   
>
>                 On 2/28/14 10:27 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>
>                   
>
>                 Hi,
>
>                   
>
>                 How having the AVP could be less error prone if it has a default
>
>                 value and the receiver knows exactly how to proceed when the AVP is
>
>                 not present?
>
>                   
>
>                 If a node does not include it when it should, the implementation is
>
>                 broken. Wouldn't a broken node be able to put wrong report type into
>
>                 the AVP even if the AVP is mandatory?
>
>                   
>
>                 Anyway, if it is my statement keeping issue #54 still open, consider
>
>                 it resolved from my side. I am OK making the OC-Report-Type AVP as
>
>                 required/mandatory AVP. Should we also consider it having a fixed
>
>                 position just after the OC-Sequence-Number AVP as well since it is
>
>                 going to in every OC-OLR?
>
>                   
>
>                 - Jouni
>
>                   
>
>                   
>
>                   
>
>                 On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome<[e-mail]>  <mailto:[e-mail]>  wrote:
>
>                   
>
>                   
>
>                 Hello all,
>
>                   
>
>                 I understand JJ point of view, but I still tend to prefer to make it mandatory, since I think this is less error-prone, since the only node that knows the requested Report-Type is the reporting, if for any reason a reporting is omitting it (since it is optional), it will be always interpreted as HOST, but this type may be wrong.
>
>                   
>
>                 I think DEFAULT values should never be error-prone, but used in "general cases", as a simplification, like e.g. a default for the Validity-Duration. Default Validity-Duration will never be an "error", it could be not the best value (compared with another value perfectly tuned to reporting node overload situation) but never the use of a Default value should lead to an erroneous behavior.
>
>                   
>
>                 Best regards
>
>                 /MCruz
>
>                   
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>
>                 From: DiME [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
>
>                 Sent: viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 23:13
>
>                 To: Jouni Korhonen
>
>                 Cc:[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                   
>
>                 I actually prefer making it mandatory. The cost of adding it is trivial--even more so for a reporting node that only supports the default. The value of having it is less opportunity for interop errors.
>
>                   
>
>                 On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen<[e-mail]>  <mailto:[e-mail]>  wrote:
>
>                   
>
>                   
>
>                 Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there because at
>
>                 the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry on every extra AVP
>
>                 ;-)
>
>                   
>
>                 I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value just like
>
>                 it is now. We have the same for the reduction percentage and the
>
>                 validity time as well.
>
>                   
>
>                 - Jouni
>
>                   
>
>                 On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)"<[e-mail]>  <mailto:[e-mail]>  wrote:
>
>                   
>
>                 Hi Mcruz
>
>                   
>
>                 The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference.
>
>                 We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a small optimization.
>
>                   
>
>                 Best regards
>
>                   
>
>                 JJacques
>
>                   
>
>                   
>
>                   
>
>                   
>
>                 -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                 De : DiME [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
>
>                 [e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>  Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:46 À :
>
>                 [e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>;[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>  Objet : Re: [Dime]
>
>                 [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                   
>
>                 Hi Maria Cruz,
>
>                   
>
>                 I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>
>                   
>
>                 So instead of:
>
>                   
>
>                 OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>
>                             < OC-Sequence-Number >
>
>                             [ OC-Report-Type ]
>
>                             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>
>                             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>
>                           * [ AVP ]
>
>                   
>
>                 You would prefer:
>
>                   
>
>                 OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>
>                             < OC-Sequence-Number >
>
>                             { OC-Report-Type }
>
>                             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>
>                             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>
>                           * [ AVP ]
>
>                   
>
>                 And I'm fine with this proposal.
>
>                   
>
>                 Cheers,
>
>                   
>
>                 Lionel
>
>                   
>
>                 -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                 De : DiME [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de dime issue
>
>                 tracker Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:26 À :
>
>                 [e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>  Cc :[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>  Objet : [Dime]
>
>                 [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                   
>
>                 #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                   
>
>                 Now in chapter 4.6:
>
>                   
>
>                   The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>
>                 report).
>
>                   
>
>                 This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>
>                   
>
>                 --
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                 Reporter:[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>   |      Owner:  MCruz
>
>                    Type:  defect                             |  Bartolomé
>
>                 Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>
>                 Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>
>                 Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>
>                                                              |   Keywords:
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                   
>
>                 Ticket URL:<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>  <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>
>                 dime<http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>  <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>
>                   
>
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