Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> Tue, 25 March 2014 12:38 UTC

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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 07:38:37 -0500
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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To: "Shishufeng (Susan)" <susan.shishufeng@huawei.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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Susan,

We have not been following a process of determining consensus based on a 
majority of companies expressing a preference.  It is also the case 
that, in the IETF, companies do not contribute, individuals contribute.

In addition, if we did take a "vote" on this one, I'm not sure which 
side would actually have a majority.

We might need to change our process to speed things up, but right now we 
have been striving for true consensus where everyone agrees. Note that 
this doesn't mean everyone agrees with the technical reasoning behind 
the decision.  There have been many cases where agreement is reached 
because it was more important to get something finished then to win a 
technical argument.

If we can't start moving a little faster then we will likely need to 
change to rough consensus, where the measure is that most everyone 
agrees.  However, in the IETF, even this is not a voting process. If 
things are close to 50-50 in opinions then the correct process is to 
continue to discuss the technical merits of each alternative until rough 
consensus is reached.

Regards,

Steve

On 3/25/14, 2:00 AM, Shishufeng (Susan) wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> As I know, majority companies expressed preference to keep the AVP as 
> optional and keep the texts as they are. You have preference to have 
> it explicitly but ok with either way. That's how I assumed we reached 
> consensus.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
> *From:*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 24, 2014 8:26 PM
> *To:* Shishufeng (Susan); Jouni Korhonen
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
> Susan,
>
> We are in the middle of the discussion and have not yet reached consensus.
>
> I agree with Jouni on making it explicit.  Either way, we should try 
> to make a decision quickly.
>
> Steve
>
> On 3/23/14 10:59 PM, Shishufeng (Susan) wrote:
>
>     Hello Jouni,
>
>       
>
>     I assume we had a lot of discussion on this and reached consensus to keep it as it is in the draft.
>
>       
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>     Susan
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
>
>     Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:38 AM
>
>     To: Steve Donovan
>
>     Cc:dime@ietf.org  <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     Lets have it explicit then. Use '<' and '>' to make the position fixed.
>
>       
>
>     - Jouni
>
>       
>
>     On Mar 19, 2014, at 1:29 AM, Steve Donovan<srdonovan@usdonovans.com>  <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>  wrote:
>
>       
>
>         I'm ok with either direction but generally lean toward being explicit.
>
>           
>
>         Do we have other opinions?
>
>           
>
>         Steve
>
>         On 3/18/14 12:16 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>             Hello,
>
>             I think the agreement tendency is the contrary: OC-Report-Type is not required, while default value is Host. i.e. it will remain as it is now in the draft.
>
>             This may be of some advantage for some applications that may only use Host, as long as they may never generate Realm reports.
>
>             If there is consensus on this, I will go with this.
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>               
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>
>             Sent: martes, 18 de marzo de 2014 17:47
>
>             To:dime@ietf.org  <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>               
>
>             All,
>
>               
>
>             Do we have consensus that the OC-Report-Type AVP is required?
>
>               
>
>             If so then one change would be as indicated in the syntax definition proposed by Lionel.  We would also remove wording on the default value.
>
>               
>
>             Jouni,
>
>               
>
>             How do we indicate a fixed position for an AVP?
>
>               
>
>             I presonally don't see this as critical but we can add this requirement if there is consensus.
>
>               
>
>             Regards,
>
>               
>
>             Steve
>
>               
>
>             On 2/28/14 10:27 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>
>               
>
>             Hi,
>
>               
>
>             How having the AVP could be less error prone if it has a default
>
>             value and the receiver knows exactly how to proceed when the AVP is
>
>             not present?
>
>               
>
>             If a node does not include it when it should, the implementation is
>
>             broken. Wouldn't a broken node be able to put wrong report type into
>
>             the AVP even if the AVP is mandatory?
>
>               
>
>             Anyway, if it is my statement keeping issue #54 still open, consider
>
>             it resolved from my side. I am OK making the OC-Report-Type AVP as
>
>             required/mandatory AVP. Should we also consider it having a fixed
>
>             position just after the OC-Sequence-Number AVP as well since it is
>
>             going to in every OC-OLR?
>
>               
>
>             - Jouni
>
>               
>
>               
>
>               
>
>             On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>  <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>  wrote:
>
>               
>
>               
>
>             Hello all,
>
>               
>
>             I understand JJ point of view, but I still tend to prefer to make it mandatory, since I think this is less error-prone, since the only node that knows the requested Report-Type is the reporting, if for any reason a reporting is omitting it (since it is optional), it will be always interpreted as HOST, but this type may be wrong.
>
>               
>
>             I think DEFAULT values should never be error-prone, but used in "general cases", as a simplification, like e.g. a default for the Validity-Duration. Default Validity-Duration will never be an "error", it could be not the best value (compared with another value perfectly tuned to reporting node overload situation) but never the use of a Default value should lead to an erroneous behavior.
>
>               
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>               
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
>
>             Sent: viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 23:13
>
>             To: Jouni Korhonen
>
>             Cc:dime@ietf.org  <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>               
>
>             I actually prefer making it mandatory. The cost of adding it is trivial--even more so for a reporting node that only supports the default. The value of having it is less opportunity for interop errors.
>
>               
>
>             On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen<jouni.nospam@gmail.com>  <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>               
>
>               
>
>             Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there because at
>
>             the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry on every extra AVP
>
>             ;-)
>
>               
>
>             I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value just like
>
>             it is now. We have the same for the reduction percentage and the
>
>             validity time as well.
>
>               
>
>             - Jouni
>
>               
>
>             On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)"<jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>  <mailto:jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>  wrote:
>
>               
>
>             Hi Mcruz
>
>               
>
>             The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference.
>
>             We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a small optimization.
>
>               
>
>             Best regards
>
>               
>
>             JJacques
>
>               
>
>               
>
>               
>
>               
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
>
>             lionel.morand@orange.com  <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>  Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:46 À :
>
>             dime@ietf.org  <mailto:dime@ietf.org>;maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>  Objet : Re: [Dime]
>
>             [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>               
>
>             Hi Maria Cruz,
>
>               
>
>             I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>
>               
>
>             So instead of:
>
>               
>
>             OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>
>                         < OC-Sequence-Number >
>
>                         [ OC-Report-Type ]
>
>                         [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>
>                         [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>
>                       * [ AVP ]
>
>               
>
>             You would prefer:
>
>               
>
>             OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>
>                         < OC-Sequence-Number >
>
>                         { OC-Report-Type }
>
>                         [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>
>                         [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>
>                       * [ AVP ]
>
>               
>
>             And I'm fine with this proposal.
>
>               
>
>             Cheers,
>
>               
>
>             Lionel
>
>               
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue
>
>             tracker Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:26 À :
>
>             maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>  Cc :dime@ietf.org  <mailto:dime@ietf.org>  Objet : [Dime]
>
>             [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>               
>
>             #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>               
>
>             Now in chapter 4.6:
>
>               
>
>               The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>
>             report).
>
>               
>
>             This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>
>               
>
>             --
>
>             -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>
>             -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>             -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>             Reporter:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>   |      Owner:  MCruz
>
>                Type:  defect                             |  Bartolomé
>
>             Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>
>             Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>
>             Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>
>                                                          |   Keywords:
>
>             -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>
>             -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>             -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>               
>
>             Ticket URL:<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>  <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>
>             dime<http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>  <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>
>               
>
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