Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs

Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> Wed, 11 December 2013 18:25 UTC

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs
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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:25:10 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs
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Hello (and something else now :), fast key combination, I won't be able to repeat,  was the responsible)



As mentioned before, something else on cons side for self-contained:



A part from that,  one concern with "self-contained OLRs" is that some data is duplicated. Duplication should be avoided, since then we need to assure consistency, and error handing in case implicit and explicit data values are different for any reason... what means that it may always be required to check both implicit and explicit data.



Also, I think this is a pure implementation proposal. Regardless how the data is transported it could be packed in a "self-contained OLRs" within the diameter application, if for any implementation this is preferred.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: miércoles, 11 de diciembre de 2013 19:02
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs

Hi Steve

I am sorry, Steve,  I do not see the difference between the Draft Roach scope approach and the self contained OLRs.

With the scope approach in Draft Roach : there is an overload metric AVP  (eg containing a % of traffic reduction) coupled with one or several Overlaod-Infoscope AVPs, an overlaod infoscope identifying an application or a destination host or... . These Overlaod-Infoscope AVPs can be combined  with also  the possibility of  multi instances to have a list of applications, a list of destination hosts etc  to which the overload metric would apply.

With self contained OLR as you have described them, un OLR will also contain an OC-Reduction-Percentage  AVP coupled with one or several others AVPs (the self containment approach) to indicate which application(s), destinations host (s) etc the   OC-Reduction-Percentage  AVP applies.

Where is the difference?

So the drawbacks identified for the scope approach also apply with the self contained approach

Best regards

JJacques



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoyé : mercredi 11 décembre 2013 14:20
À : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs

JJacques,

While the self contained overload report concept may be similar to the scopes concept in the Roach draft, they are not the same.  As such, I don't agree with your assertion that the previous rejection of the Roach draft requires us to reject self contained overload reports as currently being discussed.

Steve
On 12/11/13 2:27 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
Hi Ben and all

I remind my mail of 05/12, where the self contained OLRs approach is quite similar to the self contained scopes  of Draft Roach which drives to multiply the number of AVPs in the OLRs (AVPs identifying Application, destination Host or even a list of Destination Hosts,  Origin-Host etc ) with all the combinational aspects behind (a list of such combinational were addressed in draft Roach).
This also result in a piggybacking  to be done  in any message , as the self contained OLR may contain many things which are not related to the answer message conveying the self contained OLR . This also  implies that at each hop, the self contained  OLRs are opened to be reprocessed in order to recreate  new self contained OLR(s)  to various destinations.
I remind that, now 6 months ago:
Many companies considered these scopes  approach too much complex, and all people including you  or your colleagues agreed to evolve towards a more simple way to proceed, which drove to the current draft content. This decision is a strong argument that still prevails  for the current baseline described in the current draft.

This is why I remain in favor of the baseline  described in the current  draft, as as I have always and regularly  expressed for  a while.

As also said, when news requirements will appear (eg session group or APN examples)  the baseline is extensible to support these new requirements .  I prefer this way of progressive extensions , rather than to create a self contained OLR  with an  immediate and not needed complexity

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Shishufeng (Susan)
Envoyé : mardi 10 décembre 2013 04:58
À : Ben Campbell; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs

Hi Ben,

Each solution has its pros and cons. The key point here is to select a right one which could satisfy the requirements but with less resource consuming.

Quick thinking on the pros you listed for self-contained OLR.


-          The first two pros can be seen as optimization, on which we are still arguing if these optimization are worth doing or not, since such optimization brings extra cost.

-          The third one is not a key issue, which could be addressed with several ways as discussed. As a last resort, the overloaded server may send something in a request towards the client to inform the end of the overload.

-          The last three pros are mainly for the case of overload of agent, if I understood them correctly. Overload of agent is still a controversial scenario, we may need more discussion in the future. But anyway, with definition of new AVPs containing the application-id, host, realm information as implied by the piggybacking messages in the draft, as complement to the OLR so far defined, they could reach the same intention as with the self-contained OLR.

Best Regards,
Susan

From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:53 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs

I am willing to call the discussion concluded for the purposes of what goes in version 01 of the DOIC  draft. But I'd like to poke a little more on what we do for a later (or final) version.

So far, I've seen 4 people opposed to self-contained OLRs (Lionel, Nirav, Maria, and Susan), and 3 in favor (Martin, Steve, and obviously me.) I don't think that fits the usual definition of rough consensus. So I'd like to look at the pros and cons a little more explicitly. Here's my view of them. I'm sure others will have other views--but I've yet to see those in the first group explain what they think the pros of implicit OLRs might be beyond those that I've included. I've also omitted any appeal to software layering, since people disputed that already.

It would also be good to hear from anyone who has not already weighed into this.

Self-Contained OLRS:

Pros:

  *   Allows an easy, generic solution to Maria's "all-application" scoped overload use case.
  *   Allows an overloaded node to signal overload for multiple applications at once, instead of having to signal each one separately.
  *   Allows an easy solution to our "loss" algorithm corner case of not being able to signal the end of a 100% overload condition
  *   Makes it easier to solve the agent overload problem, without requiring inconsistent behavior.
  *   Allows out-of-band transmission of OLRs without a new format
  *   Makes it easier to do things like adding a dedicated application for overload, without a new format. (Yes, I think there's still a use case for that, and I will detail it shortly.)
Cons:


  *   The recipient cannot assume an OLR matches the context of the transaction in which it is received.
  *   It's different than what's in the draft.

Implicit OLRs:

Pros:

  *   The recipient can infer the OLR scope from a combination of the transaction context and the report type. [I don't understand why this is valuable, but am including it since people mentioned it.]
  *   Currently described in the draft.
Cons:

  *   Would need special-case behavior to allow the "all-application" scope.
  *   An overloaded node needs to send a separate report for every supported application.
  *   Needs special-case behavior to solve agent overload
  *   Cannot signal the end of a loss algorithm 100% overload condition
  *   cannot be used out-of-band.
  *   cannot be used with dedicated applications.



On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

OK. Lets call this thread concluded then. I keep the old OC-OLR  semantics
regarding its information context then unmodified.

- Jouni



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