Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs
Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> Wed, 11 December 2013 13:19 UTC
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs
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JJacques, While the self contained overload report concept may be similar to the scopes concept in the Roach draft, they are not the same. As such, I don't agree with your assertion that the previous rejection of the Roach draft requires us to reject self contained overload reports as currently being discussed. Steve On 12/11/13 2:27 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote: > > Hi Ben and all > > > > I remind my mail of 05/12, where the self contained OLRs approach is > quite similar to the self contained scopes of Draft Roach which > drives to multiply the number of AVPs in the OLRs (AVPs identifying > Application, destination Host or even a list of Destination Hosts, > Origin-Host etc ) with all the combinational aspects behind (a list > of such combinational were addressed in draft Roach). > > This also result in a piggybacking to be done in any message , as > the self contained OLR may contain many things which are not related > to the answer message conveying the self contained OLR . This also > implies that at each hop, the self contained OLRs are opened to be > reprocessed in order to recreate new self contained OLR(s) to > various destinations. > > I remind that, now 6 months ago: > > Many companies considered these scopes approach too much complex, and > all people including you or your colleagues agreed to evolve towards > a more simple way to proceed, which drove to the current draft > content. This decision is a strong argument that still prevails for > the current baseline described in the current draft. > > > > This is why I remain in favor of the baseline described in the > current draft, as as I have always and regularly expressed for a while. > > > > As also said, when news requirements will appear (eg session group or > APN examples) the baseline is extensible to support these new > requirements . I prefer this way of progressive extensions , rather > than to create a self contained OLR with an immediate and not needed > complexity > > > > Best regards > > > > JJacques > > > > > > *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Shishufeng > (Susan) > *Envoyé :* mardi 10 décembre 2013 04:58 > *À :* Ben Campbell; dime@ietf.org list > *Objet :* Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > Each solution has its pros and cons. The key point here is to select a > right one which could satisfy the requirements but with less resource > consuming. > > > > Quick thinking on the pros you listed for self-contained OLR. > > > > - The first two pros can be seen as optimization, on which we > are still arguing if these optimization are worth doing or not, since > such optimization brings extra cost. > > - The third one is not a key issue, which could be addressed > with several ways as discussed. As a last resort, the overloaded > server may send something in a request towards the client to inform > the end of the overload. > > - The last three pros are mainly for the case of overload of > agent, if I understood them correctly. Overload of agent is still a > controversial scenario, we may need more discussion in the future. But > anyway, with definition of new AVPs containing the application-id, > host, realm information as implied by the piggybacking messages in the > draft, as complement to the OLR so far defined, they could reach the > same intention as with the self-contained OLR. > > > > Best Regards, > > Susan > > > > *From:*Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:53 AM > *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list > *Subject:* Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs > > > > I am willing to call the discussion concluded for the purposes of what > goes in version 01 of the DOIC draft. But I'd like to poke a little > more on what we do for a later (or final) version. > > > > So far, I've seen 4 people opposed to self-contained OLRs (Lionel, > Nirav, Maria, and Susan), and 3 in favor (Martin, Steve, and obviously > me.) I don't think that fits the usual definition of rough consensus. > So I'd like to look at the pros and cons a little more explicitly. > Here's my view of them. I'm sure others will have other views--but > I've yet to see those in the first group explain what they think the > pros of implicit OLRs might be beyond those that I've included. I've > also omitted any appeal to software layering, since people disputed > that already. > > > > It would also be good to hear from anyone who has not already weighed > into this. > > > > *Self-Contained OLRS:* > > > > Pros: > > * Allows an easy, generic solution to Maria's "all-application" > scoped overload use case. > * Allows an overloaded node to signal overload for multiple > applications at once, instead of having to signal each one separately. > * Allows an easy solution to our "loss" algorithm corner case of not > being able to signal the end of a 100% overload condition > * Makes it easier to solve the agent overload problem, without > requiring inconsistent behavior. > * Allows out-of-band transmission of OLRs without a new format > * Makes it easier to do things like adding a dedicated application > for overload, without a new format. (Yes, I think there's still a > use case for that, and I will detail it shortly.) > > Cons: > > > > * The recipient cannot assume an OLR matches the context of the > transaction in which it is received. > * It's different than what's in the draft. > > > > *Implicit OLRs:* > > > > Pros: > > * The recipient can infer the OLR scope from a combination of the > transaction context and the report type. [I don't understand why > this is valuable, but am including it since people mentioned it.] > * Currently described in the draft. > > Cons: > > * Would need special-case behavior to allow the "all-application" scope. > * An overloaded node needs to send a separate report for every > supported application. > * Needs special-case behavior to solve agent overload > * Cannot signal the end of a loss algorithm 100% overload condition > * cannot be used out-of-band. > * cannot be used with dedicated applications. > > > > > > > > On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com > <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > OK. Lets call this thread concluded then. I keep the old OC-OLR semantics > regarding its information context then unmodified. > > - Jouni > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > DiME mailing list > DiME@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Jouni Korhonen
- [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Jouni Korhonen
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Jouni Korhonen
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs lionel.morand
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Jouni Korhonen
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Jouni Korhonen
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Nirav Salot (nsalot)
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Maria Cruz Bartolome
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Ben Campbell
- Re: [Dime] DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Steve Donovan
- [Dime] 答复: DOIC: Self-Contained OLRs Shishufeng (Susan)