Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> Wed, 26 March 2014 12:20 UTC

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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:20:30 -0500
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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To: "Shishufeng (Susan)" <susan.shishufeng@huawei.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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I disagree that the majority of individuals (companies don't apply here)
have a preference.  We have not established the view of a majority.

If we took a vote of individuals on this, I would vote for making it
explicit. 

I also support Lionel being able to make a decision.  We all need to be
flexible enough to accept that decision, especially when there is no
technical reason to disagree with the decision.

Steve

On 3/26/14 3:03 AM, Shishufeng (Susan) wrote:
>
> Hello Lionel,
>
>  
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
>  
>
> It is clear that majority companies involved in the discussion prefer
> to not have this AVP as mandatory. And Steve is ok with it as it is,
> and thus everyone is ok with it as optional. I'm wondering why you
> choose another way forward, and don't take opinion from majority
> companies into account, which is strange for me.
>
>  
>
> We talked much about it, and in some major cases, this AVP is useless.
> If needed, anyway an optional AVP has to be present, I don't see any
> problem with it. We did a lot like this in 3GPP spec. I don't
> understand how in this case it shall be mandatory if you also agree
> that it is not needed in some cases.
>
>  
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:35 PM
> *To:* Shishufeng (Susan); Steve Donovan; Jouni Korhonen
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org; Benoit Claise
> *Subject:* RE: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>  
>
> Hi Susan,
>
>  
>
> I do care about comments from other but we need to move on.
>
>  
>
> My decision is based on the following: from a technical point of view,
> there is no issue if we define this AVP as required. From a protocol
> aspect, it is cleaner as a report ALWAYS applies to a given type.
> Default value was considered as sub-optimal by Jouni, Ben, Steve,
> Maria Cruz (who has triggered this issue) and myself.
>
>  
>
> Now, about the process, a 100% is not required to move forward. As it
> is not possible to get consensus on this issue, I use my prerogative
> to pick one solution, the one that seems to be the best solution at
> this stage, to be able to close the discussion at this stage and
> produce the draft that we need.
>
>  
>
> After, it is always possible to challenge again the content of the
> draft if there is still concern.
>
>  
>
> Benoit, the Area Director, is copied. It is not a putsch. Just
> administrative way agreed within IETF to be able to move forward a WG
> draft, which is the ultimate goal of everyone I think.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> Lionel.
>
>  
>
> *De :*Shishufeng (Susan) [mailto:susan.shishufeng@huawei.com]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 26 mars 2014 08:06
> *À :* Shishufeng (Susan); MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; Jouni
> Korhonen
> *Cc :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Objet :* RE: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>  
>
> Hello Lionel,
>
>  
>
> Further clarification:
>
>  
>
> I don't agree with this, not ok to everyone as you said.
>
>  
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
>  
>
> *From:*Shishufeng (Susan) [mailto:susan.shishufeng@huawei.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:56 PM
> *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>;
> Steve Donovan; Jouni Korhonen
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>  
>
> Hello Lionel,
>
>  
>
> I don't understand it.
>
>  
>
> Please clarify if you care about other people's comments.
>
>  
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
>  
>
> *From:*lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
> [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:44 PM
> *To:* Steve Donovan; Jouni Korhonen; Shishufeng (Susan)
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>  
>
> As chair and temporary doc shepherd,
>  
> Please stop this thread for now.
>  
> As mandatory/required is ok for everyone (even if useless in certain case), let use it for now.
>  
> Lionel 
>  
>  
> "Shishufeng (Susan)" <susan.shishufeng@huawei.com <mailto:susan.shishufeng@huawei.com>> a écrit :
>  
>
> Hello Steve,
>
>  
>
> Thanks for clarifying the IETF procedure. I'm not familiar with it,
> while I know the draft is mainly for 3GPP use, that's why we 3GPP
> delegates are deeply involved in this specific discussion. If most of
> 3GPP people think it is not so needed I couldn't understand why it
> shall be mandatory.
>
>  
>
> From technical point of view, in the case realm based report type is
> not needed, nothing wrong without this AVP, and even better and cleaner.
>
>  
>
> And you ever said you have preference but ok with either way forward,
> i.e., make it mandatory or optional. Then let's move on with the draft
> as it is on this point, if you agree.
>
>  
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Susan
>
>  
>
> *From:*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:39 PM
> *To:* Shishufeng (Susan); Jouni Korhonen
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>  
>
> Susan,
>
> We have not been following a process of determining consensus based on
> a majority of companies expressing a preference.  It is also the case
> that, in the IETF, companies do not contribute, individuals contribute.
>
> In addition, if we did take a "vote" on this one, I'm not sure which
> side would actually have a majority.
>
> We might need to change our process to speed things up, but right now
> we have been striving for true consensus where everyone agrees.  Note
> that this doesn't mean everyone agrees with the technical reasoning
> behind the decision.  There have been many cases where agreement is
> reached because it was more important to get something finished then
> to win a technical argument.
>
> If we can't start moving a little faster then we will likely need to
> change to rough consensus, where the measure is that most everyone
> agrees.  However, in the IETF, even this is not a voting process.  If
> things are close to 50-50 in opinions then the correct process is to
> continue to discuss the technical merits of each alternative until
> rough consensus is reached.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> On 3/25/14, 2:00 AM, Shishufeng (Susan) wrote:
>
>     Hi Steve,
>
>      
>
>     As I know, majority companies expressed preference to keep the AVP
>     as optional and keep the texts as they are. You have preference to
>     have it explicitly but ok with either way. That's how I assumed we
>     reached consensus.
>
>      
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>     Susan
>
>      
>
>     *From:*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, March 24, 2014 8:26 PM
>     *To:* Shishufeng (Susan); Jouni Korhonen
>     *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>      
>
>     Susan,
>
>     We are in the middle of the discussion and have not yet reached
>     consensus.
>
>     I agree with Jouni on making it explicit.  Either way, we should
>     try to make a decision quickly.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 3/23/14 10:59 PM, Shishufeng (Susan) wrote:
>
>         Hello Jouni,
>
>          
>
>         I assume we had a lot of discussion on this and reached consensus to keep it as it is in the draft. 
>
>          
>
>         Best Regards,
>
>         Susan
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>         Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:38 AM
>
>         To: Steve Donovan
>
>         Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         Lets have it explicit then. Use '<' and '>' to make the position fixed.
>
>          
>
>         - Jouni
>
>          
>
>         On Mar 19, 2014, at 1:29 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>             I'm ok with either direction but generally lean toward being explicit.
>
>              
>
>             Do we have other opinions?  
>
>              
>
>             Steve
>
>             On 3/18/14 12:16 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>                 Hello,
>
>                 I think the agreement tendency is the contrary: OC-Report-Type is not required, while default value is Host. i.e. it will remain as it is now in the draft.
>
>                 This may be of some advantage for some applications that may only use Host, as long as they may never generate Realm reports.
>
>                 If there is consensus on this, I will go with this.
>
>                 Best regards
>
>                 /MCruz
>
>                  
>
>                 From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>
>                 Sent: martes, 18 de marzo de 2014 17:47
>
>                 To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 All,
>
>                  
>
>                 Do we have consensus that the OC-Report-Type AVP is required?
>
>                  
>
>                 If so then one change would be as indicated in the syntax definition proposed by Lionel.  We would also remove wording on the default value.
>
>                  
>
>                 Jouni,
>
>                  
>
>                 How do we indicate a fixed position for an AVP?  
>
>                  
>
>                 I presonally don't see this as critical but we can add this requirement if there is consensus.
>
>                  
>
>                 Regards,
>
>                  
>
>                 Steve
>
>                  
>
>                 On 2/28/14 10:27 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>
>                  
>
>                 Hi,
>
>                  
>
>                 How having the AVP could be less error prone if it has a default 
>
>                 value and the receiver knows exactly how to proceed when the AVP is 
>
>                 not present?
>
>                  
>
>                 If a node does not include it when it should, the implementation is 
>
>                 broken. Wouldn't a broken node be able to put wrong report type into 
>
>                 the AVP even if the AVP is mandatory?
>
>                  
>
>                 Anyway, if it is my statement keeping issue #54 still open, consider 
>
>                 it resolved from my side. I am OK making the OC-Report-Type AVP as 
>
>                 required/mandatory AVP. Should we also consider it having a fixed 
>
>                 position just after the OC-Sequence-Number AVP as well since it is 
>
>                 going to in every OC-OLR?
>
>                  
>
>                 - Jouni
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 Hello all,
>
>                  
>
>                 I understand JJ point of view, but I still tend to prefer to make it mandatory, since I think this is less error-prone, since the only node that knows the requested Report-Type is the reporting, if for any reason a reporting is omitting it (since it is optional), it will be always interpreted as HOST, but this type may be wrong.
>
>                  
>
>                 I think DEFAULT values should never be error-prone, but used in "general cases", as a simplification, like e.g. a default for the Validity-Duration. Default Validity-Duration will never be an "error", it could be not the best value (compared with another value perfectly tuned to reporting node overload situation) but never the use of a Default value should lead to an erroneous behavior.
>
>                  
>
>                 Best regards
>
>                 /MCruz
>
>                  
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>
>                 From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
>
>                 Sent: viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 23:13
>
>                 To: Jouni Korhonen
>
>                 Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 I actually prefer making it mandatory. The cost of adding it is trivial--even more so for a reporting node that only supports the default. The value of having it is less opportunity for interop errors.
>
>                  
>
>                 On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there because at 
>
>                 the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry on every extra AVP 
>
>                 ;-)
>
>                  
>
>                 I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value just like 
>
>                 it is now. We have the same for the reduction percentage and the 
>
>                 validity time as well.
>
>                  
>
>                 - Jouni
>
>                  
>
>                 On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> <mailto:jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
>
>                  
>
>                 Hi Mcruz
>
>                  
>
>                 The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference. 
>
>                 We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a small optimization.
>
>                  
>
>                 Best regards
>
>                  
>
>                 JJacques
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                 De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de 
>
>                 lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:46 À :
>
>                 dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> Objet : Re: [Dime] 
>
>                 [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 Hi Maria Cruz,
>
>                  
>
>                 I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>
>                  
>
>                 So instead of:
>
>                  
>
>                 OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>
>                            < OC-Sequence-Number >
>
>                            [ OC-Report-Type ]
>
>                            [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>
>                            [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>
>                          * [ AVP ]
>
>                  
>
>                 You would prefer:
>
>                  
>
>                 OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>
>                            < OC-Sequence-Number >
>
>                            { OC-Report-Type }
>
>                            [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>
>                            [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>
>                          * [ AVP ]
>
>                  
>
>                 And I'm fine with this proposal.
>
>                  
>
>                 Cheers,
>
>                  
>
>                 Lionel
>
>                  
>
>                 -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                 De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue 
>
>                 tracker Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:26 À :
>
>                 maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> Objet : [Dime] 
>
>                 [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 Now in chapter 4.6:
>
>                  
>
>                  The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host  
>
>                 report).
>
>                  
>
>                 This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>
>                  
>
>                 --
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                 Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com <mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>  |      Owner:  MCruz
>
>                   Type:  defect                             |  Bartolomé
>
>                 Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>
>                 Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>
>                 Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>
>                                                             |   Keywords:
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                 -----------------------------------------------+---
>
>                  
>
>                 Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>
>                 dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>
>                  
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>
>                 DiME mailing list
>
>                 DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>                  
>
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> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>  
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>  
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.