Re: [Din] [IRTF-Announce] Decentralized Internet Infrastructure (dinrg) RG Virtual Meeting: 2021-06-03 CHANGED

Dirk Kutscher <> Mon, 31 May 2021 18:53 UTC

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From: "Dirk Kutscher" <>
To: "Curtis Villamizar" <>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 20:52:55 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Din] [IRTF-Announce] Decentralized Internet Infrastructure (dinrg) RG Virtual Meeting: 2021-06-03 CHANGED
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Hi Curtis,

> Here is a place to start.  Web browsers could support DANE so that we
> are not dependent on a predetermined set of CA with URLs not bound to
> a specific CA so a bad actor (government for example) who has had a CA
> accepted to the set included with browsers can make up their own
> certificates for any site for the purpose of a man-in-the-middle atack
> as long as they don't get caught or can coerce others to look the
> other way (ie: claim lawful intercept).
> The system of a set of equally trusted CAs is the web's largest single
> flaw.
> No new protocols needed for that one.  Those who prefer not to use
> DNSSEC and DANE can continue to use the bag of CAs included with the
> browser.

Thanks for the input.

Without discussing the merits and deployment status of DANE today, I 
just wanted to say that the meeting on Thursday is going to be rather 
problem-oriented (which could include the web certificate trust 
architecture of course).

Hope to see you there,


> Curtis
> In message <>
> IESG Secretary writes:
>> The Decentralized Internet Infrastructure (dinrg) RG will hold
>> a virtual interim meeting on 2021-06-03 from 19:00 to 22:00 UTC.
>> Agenda:
>> # DINRG Workshop (Interim Meeting) on the Centralization in the 
>> Internet
>> We are planning an online workshop for the start of June that is 
>> intended to enable a principled discussion on Centralization in the 
>> Internet and its root causes.
>> ## Motivation
>> The networking community generally seems to agree that the Internet 
>> consolidation and centralization trend has progressed rapidly over 
>> the last few years, bringing impactful societal and economical 
>> consequences. To counter that trend, multiple studies and activities 
>> have been launched to decentralize the Internet and the Web (for 
>> example see 
>>, and, 
>> plus various Blockchain-inspired approaches).
>> When the internet started as a completely decentralized system 40 
>> years back, at that time perhaps few people, if any, could have 
>> foreseen where it is today. How did we get from there to here? What 
>> is driving aggregation and centralization in the Internet? What are 
>> the implications for industry actors and technology as well as for 
>> users/consumers?
>> We believe that a good understanding of this question could make a 
>> good first step towards understanding whether it is 
>> possible/feasible, and if so, how, to steer the Internet away from 
>> centralization.
>> ## Objectives
>> The objective of this workshop is to start an open discussion on the 
>> above question to help clearly characterize centralization in the 
>> Internet and to discuss its root causes. That is, before jumping to 
>> discussing various potential solutions, we suggest taking a step back 
>> and discussing how we got from there to here, and what were the 
>> driving forces and enablers at each stage.
>> We believe that a sound and evidence-based understanding is of key 
>> importance for devising any effective form of remedy and action plan. 
>> In particular, we would like to foster an understanding on the 
>> relationship of architectural properties and economic developments. 
>> For example,
>> * whether any architectural features, or lack of them, made an impact 
>> on the internet ecosystem developments and business models; and
>> * from a retrospective view, was there anything that might have been 
>> done differently, to have an impact on the course the Internet has 
>> taken?
>> This is a complex problem with many relevant factors (technical and 
>> economic) and historic developments, so we would like to invite 
>> contributions on all of these aspects to this first workshop which 
>> may likely lead to further in-depth follow-up discussion. A result of 
>> this workshop could indeed be a more substantiated agenda for more 
>> focused future research in DINRG.
>> ## How to Contribute
>> **Please send a message until May 16th EOB to** 
>> if you are interested to contribute to the workshop. We ask that you 
>> include a 1-page abstract (no special formatting requirements) of 
>> your intended contribution that would help us to to categorize inputs 
>> and to have a record of the different perspectives in the workshop 
>> proceedings (DINRG meeting material).
>> ## Format
>> * DINRG online interim meeting, with open participation
>> * 3 hours duration with one break
>> * Lightning talks on different aspects of the problem
>> * Ample time for discussion
>> ## Logistics
>> * Date and time: Thursday, June 3rd 2021 1900 UTC, 21:00 CEST / 05:00 
>> AEST (Fri) / 12:00 PDT / 09:00 HST (tentatively)
>> * Duration: 3 hours with a break in the middle
>> * MeetEcho (Online as an IRTF DINRG meeting) -- details TBA on DINRG 
>> list
>> Information about remote participation:
>> MeetEcho: 
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