[Din] Re: next steps for DINRG
William Lehr <wlehr@mit.edu> Mon, 21 October 2024 20:35 UTC
Return-Path: <wlehr@mit.edu>
X-Original-To: din@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: din@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF373C22296C for <din@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:35:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.103
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mit.edu
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U3-kSqKJ6T4p for <din@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:35:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D9A3C32F206 for <din@irtf.org>; Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.6] (syn-067-244-134-247.res.spectrum.com [67.244.134.247]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as wlehr@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 49LKXSqG020716 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 21 Oct 2024 16:33:29 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mit.edu; s=outgoing; t=1729542816; bh=Q3onOyxiy/0qRjNyDXe5f/OjixEOK9tHB2sj1HC1ly0=; h=Content-Type:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:From; b=e3FigHDOg4ylshZScrquwkbTMihgkz6vmMZXg3hT1Vi4NoLlz7I/HwqURcUEuWj3v lt35RefHllzlPF7shITwIsbGBs8gywgF4Q9h1T4IQ5cxmh7rCwWD6sHjX2Ha65bYyJ 2QaDI9GPClilDJUqhtgb2xJHq+7ObK/ndmCcPmX4NNDF43hRs/N1vg00fX+eWzA/uV XCGpsmdmmUjHpeq9IX2nXldo0+fOanSMa+pUmzP1IhOexDmWYqrZJwmH8PIFZzrpZ9 NhPD2nTgPV+R9/W39jCxWRMTkJYn+dxlQ6H2689ODL83cQPDcKzKDeII9QFlp/2Rq2 f2MJ+Moch9K6w==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3NYea7n9Jwql8Oh6smxTyS0T"
Message-ID: <ac3bea84-aeac-4af2-a956-9cb23511656b@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 16:33:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
To: Lixia Zhang <lixia@cs.ucla.edu>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@MIT.EDU>
References: <18BAB346-D64A-40A3-A29B-9146562E5674@dkutscher.net> <6d66bdb8-b546-40b1-b723-ee8ac80b8adb@app.fastmail.com> <BYAPR01MB4391391642D149D59316D9F0CB402@BYAPR01MB4391.prod.exchangelabs.com> <F0DCA536-FBE4-4292-923A-796977A90052@cs.ucla.edu>
Content-Language: en-US
From: William Lehr <wlehr@mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <F0DCA536-FBE4-4292-923A-796977A90052@cs.ucla.edu>
Message-ID-Hash: TQMKQAR5HPUX4HJSR3EUBB7IQG2SAZHW
X-Message-ID-Hash: TQMKQAR5HPUX4HJSR3EUBB7IQG2SAZHW
X-MailFrom: wlehr@mit.edu
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-din.irtf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: Chad Kohalyk <chad@kohalyk.com>, "din@irtf.org" <din@irtf.org>, Volker Stocker <vstocker@inet.tu-berlin.de>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG
List-Id: "Discussion of distributed Internet Infrastructure approaches, aspects such as Service Federation, and underlying technologies" <din.irtf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/din/7M4FWm0E2ndn_QvmC0zPLWo2Eh8>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/din>
List-Help: <mailto:din-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:din-owner@irtf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:din@irtf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:din-join@irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:din-leave@irtf.org>
RE: "Yes I’m aware of economic papers/analysis stating that efficiency and cost-savings favors centralization. In contrast, I’m referring to future so-called Web3 systems that bake-in decentralization patterns to avoid these concentrations of power." There are certainly economic models that argue that efficiency and cost-savings favor centralization, but that is definitely NOT a consensus conclusion since it very much depends on the context. In a dynamic environment centralization may very well be less efficient and more costly. The economic arguments for productive efficiency (cost-savings) often rely on scale economies that are assumed to depend on centralized organization of production. The technical and economic implications of more or less decentralization depend on the context and dimension of performance you are considering. Control (decision-making power), ownership, and Parties bearing costs/benefits may all vary in different degrees with respect to the extent of centralization or decentralization. On 10/21/24 9:54 AM, Lixia Zhang wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > thanks for your great set of questions. > Just a personal comment: most of your questions seem to me related to > one basic question one way or another: what is exactly the definition > of "Internet decentralization" that we are aiming at? > > I think clarifying this definition would directly answer the questions > about VMs vs bare-metal, machine locations etc. This would also > indirectly touch on some other questions (e.g. do so-called Web3 > systems have bake-in decentralization). > > I also appreciate your suggestion of identifying potential relations > between DINRG and some WGs work. > > Lixia > >> On Oct 18, 2024, at 12:30 PM, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@MIT.EDU> wrote: >> >> Just some quick thoughts on the “What’s next” question. >> One of the things DINRG could focus on is the standards >> (architectures, protocols, etc.) and tools to measure the degree of >> decentralization of systems and networks (notably those DLT-based >> offerings that claim to be “decentralized”). >> Let’s say a DLT network (e.g. blockchain) has 100 nodes and the >> network claims to be operating in decentralized manner. What if it >> turns out that 90% of those nodes are actually VMs running in the >> cloud, and what if it turns out that 90% of those cloud-based VMs are >> running on the same Cloud Provider? (worse, what if they’re running >> on the same Zones, like US-West and US-East). Would you accept >> their claim of decentralization seriously? >> Some possible future work for DINRG: >> -- Could DIN look at protocols that report on which nodes are running >> on bare-metal, versus physically separated VMs, versus VMs clustered >> in a given zone. >> -- Could Device-ID and device-stack identifiers be useful (building >> on protocols defined in the RATS WG and TEEP WG). >> -- Could DIN leverage the work already being done in the IEF WGs >> (e.g. RATS, SCITT, etc), and also from other industry bodies (e.g. >> TCG DICE; OpenCompute; Confidential Computing Consortium; etc). >> -- Could DIN be the funnel/filter into which near-mature proposal can >> be fed into working groups in the IETF. An example of this was the >> Group Security RG (GSEC) that funneled some ready items into the MSEC WG. >> https://www.irtf.org/concluded/gsec.html >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/msec/about/ >> PS. Yes I’m aware of economic papers/analysis stating that >> efficiency and cost-savings favors centralization. In contrast, I’m >> referring to future so-called Web3 systems that bake-in >> decentralization patterns to avoid these concentrations of power. >> Best >> --thomas >> >> *From:*Chad Kohalyk <chad@kohalyk.com> >> *Date:*Friday, October 18, 2024 at 12:41 PM >> *To:*din@irtf.org<din@irtf.org> >> *Subject:*[Din] Re: next steps for DINRG >> >> Thanks Dirk. >> One possibility is to discuss “What now?” >> I think that was one of the conclusions of the IETF120 discussion: >> who should DINRG collaborate with in order to effect change? >> In other words, what is DINRG’s theory of change? Where does the >> research go once it is complete? Is DINRG’s role purely observatory? >> On who’s behalf? (merely the IRTF?) >> Possibly these were answered when DINRG was stood up, but based on >> the conversation in Vancouver it didn’t seem like the community >> understood what’s next. >> So I submit this as a topic suggestion. >> Thank you, >> Chad Kohalyk >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024, at 1:41 AM, Dirk Kutscher wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> in Dublin, we are planning to continue our discussion on next >> steps for DINRG. >> >> To that end, we are soliciting suggestions, interests >> indications, and questions here. If you have a suggestion, please >> feel free to share it here or by personal e-mail. >> >> We will collect everything and then prepare a summary before the >> meeting. >> >> As a bit of background: >> >> As chartered, DINRG has different objectives: >> >> * Investigation of the root causes of Internet centralization, >> and articulation of the impacts of the market economy, >> architecture and protocol designs, as well as government >> regulations; >> * Measurement of the Internet centralization and the >> consequential societal impacts; >> * Characterization and assessment of observed Internet >> centralization; >> * Development of a common terminology and understanding of >> (de-)centralization; >> * Interaction with the broader research community to explore >> new research topics and technical solutions for decentralized >> system and application development; >> * Documentation of the outcome from the above efforts via >> different means (e.g., research papers and RFCs) as inputs to >> the broader conversation around centralization; and >> * Facilitation of discussions between researchers, >> organizations and individuals involved in Internet standards >> and regulations. >> >> Let us know, which of these objectives should be emphasized in >> your view, and whether you have specific interests within these >> topics that should be discussed more. >> >> Best regards, >> Dirk and Lixia >> _______________________________________________ >> Din mailing list -- din@irtf.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to din-leave@irtf.org >> *Attachments:* >> >> * signature.asc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Din mailing list --din@irtf.org >> To unsubscribe send an email todin-leave@irtf.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Din mailing list --din@irtf.org > To unsubscribe send an email todin-leave@irtf.org -- ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+ Dr. William Lehr Research Associate Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (CSAIL) MIT Office: Massachusetts Institute of Technology 32 Vassar Street (32-G532) Cambridge, MA 02139 tel: 617-258-0630 fax: 617-253-2673 Home Office (preferred): 94 Hubbard street Concord, MA 01742 cell: 978-618-3775 (preferred) fixed: 978-287-0525 website:http://csail.mit.edu/~wlehr email:wlehr@mit.edu ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+
- [Din] next steps for DINRG Dirk Kutscher
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Chad Kohalyk
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Thomas Hardjono
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG 김우태(Operation연구TF)
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 202410191733.A… Abraham Y. Chen
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Lixia Zhang
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Lixia Zhang
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG William Lehr
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Thomas Hardjono
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 202410191733.A… Lixia Zhang
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG eburger-l@standardstrack.com
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Lixia Zhang
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Christian Huitema
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Jon Crowcroft
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG William Lehr
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Thomas Hardjono
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 202410191733.A… William Lehr
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 202410191733.A… Jens Finkhäuser
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Dirk Trossen
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Dirk Trossen
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 202410230956.A… Abraham Y. Chen
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 2024110211733.… Abraham Y. Chen
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 202410231010.A… Abraham Y. Chen
- [Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 2024110211733.… William Lehr