[Din] Workshop on Centralization -- Final Agenda

Dirk Kutscher <ietf@dkutscher.net> Tue, 01 June 2021 20:22 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf@dkutscher.net>
X-Original-To: din@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: din@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C093A2627 for <din@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Jun 2021 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gjCKSSFD-tBu for <din@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Jun 2021 13:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E00D53A2624 for <din@irtf.org>; Tue, 1 Jun 2021 13:22:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [] ([]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 []) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MYN7M-1ls6oY1NH0-00VOjJ for <din@irtf.org>; Tue, 01 Jun 2021 22:22:28 +0200
From: Dirk Kutscher <ietf@dkutscher.net>
To: din@irtf.org
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 22:22:26 +0200
X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5757)
Message-ID: <A164CAB7-C592-41CB-B010-20581E3D96BE@dkutscher.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_E02F9F86-8259-4C9A-8675-927608E83281_="
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:P0ETbSDeLpSKqlHIrV19N1Pvshu7dDln6Pv+UYEI60l83n+b7Qa lcVHRJRTjRlgMbatkvn2C8G1kTcNWlJ3SjtDPTO4QfoIfeiSxjw6545mARAVr6AbLHwFYOG vzTy5zE6615pWTM6yYwjrrj0Hh6wEu86SsbS+OgBK10PtB82dUCb3JAp7W8RGTa8CpBguNP NxzSwkXRqS2cpJdp11mGw==
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:HzUvlNcNu7c=:+G1vt5ul6C189AZenSlc1n qa2yy9Sw4iFFext1qZMj9HohS8c9l4C4f63SuDWo+b7UBSiCa7VbxrpJcHw/1mdP+rRKkQFDI /MIeXOAxEfryxA1sBzRPnHqm0BwkC2WdCPxTTdRQs5KhzsQy0xo7yLnaxjrpHqZ1APQtoQOgr Co0r19WXo9mWCfdet+P1wim0YXCPULoonVxs0Foexbfm1vdvf9Zy99gHst6Q3wPU9XVyTGbIw mXaik5ValVebDgzg2a2fRCo/Y2zLWslnETmS1ZIdlNwXEJ8rR92GPwp7upIfgVe1qaN2BhHSP dHOYlSlDON0+aQepv+8akRFtCBKjH31jXSz2VI/mCCawkV9Gy7zyQjqi3CpJX3XNVcsjbifrH z+TAY21jPO4RQqb/gJCWEgyoQ+KFzNXj2oNzkjeY4cdJZzCwekkMMTHf6Jst6xABUkkMIoWLz 7o0UW+9VC5/9iwQ/Hi3AB9WuC4f3a/BgKzkWYEqA1pTnI7YfVqAj8PqtugCzt8agjzdjZ740b /v4wKKSIvss38LPQ37/Vgo=
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/din/Z6k6Xjfbq9ou0tVzxdXbn9lgxWk>
Subject: [Din] Workshop on Centralization -- Final Agenda
X-BeenThere: din@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of distributed Internet Infrastructure approaches, aspects such as Service Federation, and underlying technologies" <din.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/din>, <mailto:din-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/din/>
List-Post: <mailto:din@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:din-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/din>, <mailto:din-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 20:22:37 -0000

DINRG Workshop (Interim Meeting) on the Centralization in the Internet

-   June 3rd, 19:00 UTC to 22:00 UTC
-   [Meeting
-   [Meeting Notes and


|     |                                      |             |        |
| 1   | Welcome and Introduction             | Chairs      | 15 min |
| 2   | Panel \#1: WHY: Is Big Really Bad?   |             | 60 min |
| 3   | Break                                |             | 15 min |
| 3   | Panel \#2: HOW: How Did We Get Here? |             | 60 min |
| 4   | Open Discussion: Feedback, Thoughts  | Chairs, All | 30 min |

### Panel \#1: WHY: Is Big Really Bad?

#### Topics

-   Economic, societal, regulation perspective
-   Centralization in the Internet and Elsewhere

#### Intro Talk: Geoff Huston

#### Panel

-   Dirk Kutscher (Moderator)
-   Henning Schulzrinne
-   Dominique Lazanski
-   Geoff Huston

### Panel \#2: HOW: How Did We Get Here?

#### Topics

-   Architectural & technical discussion
-   Factors enabling centralization?

#### Intro Talk: Christian Huitema

#### Panel:

-   Lixia Zhang (Moderator)
-   Thomas Hardjono
-   Jari Arkko
-   Trinh Viet Doan
-   Christian Huitema


The networking community generally seems to agree that the Internet
consolidation and centralization trend has progressed rapidly over the
last few years, bringing impactful societal and economical consequences.
To counter that trend, multiple studies and activities have been
launched to decentralize the Internet and the Web (for example see
https://solidproject.org/, and https://www.decentralizedweb.net/, plus
various Blockchain-inspired approaches).

When the internet started as a completely decentralized system 40 years
back, at that time perhaps few people, if any, could have foreseen where
it is today. How did we get from there to here? What is driving
aggregation and centralization in the Internet? What are the
implications for industry actors and technology as well as for

We believe that a good understanding of this question could make a good
first step towards understanding whether it is possible/feasible, and if
so, how, to steer the Internet away from centralization.


The objective of this workshop is to start an open discussion on the
above question to help clearly characterize centralization in the
Internet and to discuss its root causes. That is, before jumping to
discussing various potential solutions, we suggest taking a step back
and discussing how we got from there to here, and what were the driving
forces and enablers at each stage.

We believe that a sound and evidence-based understanding is of key
importance for devising any effective form of remedy and action plan. In
particular, we would like to foster an understanding on the relationship
of architectural properties and economic developments. For example,

-   whether any architectural features, or lack of them, made an impact
     on the internet ecosystem developments and business models; and
-   from a retrospective view, was there anything that might have been
     done differently, to have an impact on the course the Internet has

This is a complex problem with many relevant factors (technical and
economic) and historic developments, so we would like to invite
contributions on all of these aspects to this first workshop which may
likely lead to further in-depth follow-up discussion. A result of this
workshop could indeed be a more substantiated agenda for more focused
future research in DINRG.

Workshop Submissions

This is the input that was submitted before the workshop. Thanks to all

1.  [Measuring Web Centralization, Trinh Viet
2.  [Centralization is about Control, not Protocols, Henning
3.  [Protocol and Engineering Effects of Consolidation, Dominique
4.  [Centrality in the Internet, Geoff
5.  [We are probably doomed to Internet consolidation, but we should
     still try do something., Christian
6.  [How We Got from There to Here: Searching for the Root Cause, Lixia
7.  [Mitigation Options against Centralization in DNS Resolvers, Jari
8.  [Decentralization != Equality?, Trinh Viet
9.  [Decentralized Data Infrastructures for the New Digital Economy,
10. [Autonomy is the real goal, Phillip
11. [Focus on Standards Adoption, Charles