Re: [Din] get discussion going on a new internet draft: On the Effects of Internet Consolidation

[Dirk Trossen <[e-mail]>]

Hi Jens,

I think the aspect of providing a ‘lens’ to look at activities, even those ongoing elsewhere in the IRTF/IETF as well as research, is key to the proposed recharter IMO. Hence my references to some of those ongoing efforts, even if it brings in dedicated tech discussions but not for the purpose of promoting the solution at hand (that is meant to happen wherever that activity is pursued) but for looking at it through that ‘lens’, even hopefully providing insights in relation to other discussions of the RG.

This view seem to align with your shepherding view expressed below.

Best,

Dirk

From: Din <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Jens Finkhaeuser
Sent: 23 March 2023 10:21
To: Dirk Trossen <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]; David Guzman <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Din] get discussion going on a new internet draft: On the Effects of Internet Consolidation

Hi,

that's something I would like to second. A fair few technical solutions aimed at or improving decentralization are not really ideal candidates for any single WG, but should be introduced to many. DINRG can help in this by being a collection point for these.

Of course, eventually some WG would have to adopt them, but at that point - hopefully - the cross-cutting concern of decentralization is already established.

My very brief involvement with IRTF/IETF so far suggests that shopping around for a WG to take on a draft is harder the more generalized the solution is. But refocusing the solution on a single WG's concerns may mean duplicating this effort in other WGs.

If DINRG acted as a shepherd for this, it would IMHO be useful.

I'm preparing a few drafts on distributed authorization, for example, which is something of a case of parallel/overlapping development to the PoA presentation we saw in London. The general concept is very much a DINRG topic, IMHO. Specific protocols, wire encodings, etc. can happen in a WG and are far more tied to the engineering needs encountered there.

Of course this comment is driven by current self-interest - but I also genuinely struggle to see a better, existing point of introduction to such things. Maybe that's just my lack of experience in IRTF/IETF speaking, however.

I hope that makes sense,
Jens
-------- Original Message --------
On 23 Mar 2023, 09:40, Dirk Trossen < [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Lixia, all, As for the charter, I am fully supporting the proposed re-chartering. Disconnecting from perceived single foci, like blockchain, is good since there is so much more to decentralization than the application of a single technology (group). OTOH, this should not prevent us bringing dedicated tech but also arch/design examples into the discussions as long as the decentralization aspect is being suitably brought out. Let me give three examples (CCing the relevant co-authors/contributors to this email): - In the RTG WG, I will present work on 'routing on service addresses' (ROSA) (see draft at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-trossen-rtgwg-rosa) making direct references to the centralization of service provisioning through CDNs as one motivation for the work. The proposed shim overlay (atop IPv6 through EHs) is aiming at, e.g., category-specific service routing overlays. Example use cases (some listed in the draft) also include the realization of DLTs itself as well as fediverse-like distributed social media (an angle very dear to Jens, who is also a co-author of this draft). - in relation to your reference to the E2E principle below, the COIN RG had an initial discussion at IETF115 on in-network computing and E2E, which is meant to continue at IETF116 (with an agenda item on the RG meeting for Monday 27th). Maybe this is tangential to discussing E2E in the light of centralization but it may also be overlapping to some extent, which may be worthwhile to consider for DINRG, too? I've CCed Ike Kunze to the mail who will present our consolidated discussion material in the COIN meeting. - coming back to DLT (or more generally DCS - distributed consensus system), drafts like https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mcbride-rtgwg-bgp-blockchain/ discuss the possible use and relevance of DCS technology in key Internet technologies like BGP (with the intention to identify other possible area of distributed/decentralized data governance). Earlier work, like https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-trossen-rtgwg-impact-of-dlts, also looked at impact of using such tech on the underlying networks (from a DIN angle, you may look at this as aiming to quantify the costs for decentralization although we did not intend to position the work this way). I'm also CCing the co-authors here to chime in, if needed. Best, Dirk -----Original Message----- From: Din On Behalf Of Lixia Zhang Sent: 22 March 2023 18:04 To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> Subject: [Din] get discussion going on a new internet draft: On the Effects of Internet Consolidation In case some people missed it: the following is a DIN-related new internet draft posted recently, which collected a number of important issues and summarized them in multiple sections including: - implications of architecture consolidations - intermediaries and consolidations, and - protocol designs and consolidations. Quoting the above section titles is a hope to attract people's attention to take a look:) So we can think through the issues and (hopefully) get the discussion going on mailing list, making ourselves better prepared for the DINRG meeting. Taking off my co-- chair hat, I'm very interested in doing a brief presentation at the meeting on the "end-to-end principle" topic to start a discussion (my personal view is that this principle remains essential, just that the deployed Internet itself has changed in some fundamental ways, therefore its specifics needs to evolve as well -- would be easier to explain in person) Whoever holding different opinions, please offer your counter arguments, or at least get them ready ready for the meeting:) Lixia -------- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : On the Effects of Internet Consolidation Authors : Dominique Lazanski Mark McFadden Filename : draft-mcfadden-cnsldtn-effects-00.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2023-03-10 Abstract: This document contributes to the continuing discussion on Internet consolidation. Over the last several years there have been many types of discussions around consolidation at a technical level, an economic or market level and also at an engineering level. This document aims to discuss recent areas of Internet consolidation and provide some suggestions for advancing the discussion. The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mcfadden-cnsldtn-effects/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mcfadden-cnsldtn-effects-00 _______________________________________________ Din mailing list [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/din