[Din] Re: next steps for DINRG Re: 202410191733.AYC

[Jens Finkhäuser <[e-mail]>]

Hi all,

On Oct 21, 2024 at 10:40 PM, William Lehr <[e-mail]> wrote:    
distributed and        decentralized often mean two different things. A distributed        mechanism may be subject to centralized control. 

That's the same with decentralized mechanisms. Blockchain comes to mind, where control over the algorithms employed is typically centralized.

Baran's old RAND memorandum has good definitions of distributed/decentralized with regards to network architectures. One should perhaps distinguish between network architectures and control mechanisms, to avoid this kind of confusion.

Jens

decentralization has        important implications for independence wrt failure modes which        impacts reliability. Telephone service reliability is enhanced        because failure of PSTN and Internet are not perfectly        correlated so failure of PSTN need not mean failure of ability        to make phone call. 

virtualization allows        control and function to be separated in geospace (distributed)        that can have implications for performance (e.g., latency,        reliability) that may not be known to higher-layer users that        may seek to exert centralized control over a system that is        distributed, etc.

On 10/21/24 10:17 AM, Lixia Zhang      wrote:

                Hi Abe,      

I think you brought up a set of very interesting, and also        very important, questions and comments. To me, the top few are:

                  "distributed or decentralized": it seems worth clarifying            whether the two words mean the same or different things in            the DINRG context.          the question in Thomas msg showed up again: how much the            node locations matter.          "we find that Internet users have no permanent identity":            this is a fact, how this fact relates/impacts            (de)centralization.              

To everyone on the list: please share your suggestions about        next step.

Dirk and I will try our best to summarize and structure all        the suggested discussion topics into Dublin agenda. 

Lixia

        On Oct 20, 2024, at 7:21 AM, Abraham Y.          Chen <aychen=[e-mail]> wrote:

          Dear Dirk:

          0)    I have been reading the eMail threads and learning the          charter of this Group for awhile. I would like to start from          trying to understand your first DINRG objective:

          1)    " Investigation of the root causes of Internet          centralization ...  ":

              Centralization vs. decentralization in a system could          manifest in surprisingly alternating manners depending on          which particular perspective that one's investigation is          focused upon. For example, 

              A.    During the Internet infancy days, the PSTN (Public          Switched Telephone Network) was criticized as being too          centralized implying that the Internet would be distributed or          decentralized. As this Group agrees, the Internet is now far          from being decentralized, after all. The reason for this          discrepancy is that back then colleagues were looking at the          network facility to assume that the operations would have the          same characteristics.

              B.    Comparing the operations today, we find that          Internet users have no permanent identity, except temporarily          assigned by multi-national business conglomerates, thus not          able to freely communicate with one another, starting from          even a neighbor. This means that the Internet operation today          is a centralized one. In contrast, PSTN supports dial-up          modems that enable any and every user the freedom /          flexibility / independence of contacting anyone around the          world anytime for data communication (This was how the          Internet initially got popularized, although very slow by          today's standards) which is clearly a distributed and          decentralized operation. 

          2)    The above may sound contradicting that a centralized          facility supports decentralized operation while a          decentralized one operates centralized. The fact is that the          top layer operational behavior of a system determines which          way it is from a user's viewpoint. In OSI 7 Layer model, as          far as I could understand, we should set          distributed/decentralized as the criterion at OSI Layer 7 for          every system. Which way the lower Layers appear to be really          does not matter, as long as they can eventually support the          ultimate goal.

          3)    More specifically, the PSTN core equipment is so          centralized that the identity of every subscriber loop is          predetermined with a phone number. So, a CPE (Customer          Premises Equipment) can be mass produced without the          capability to acquire an identification upon plugging into a          jack at the end of a subscriber loop. Essentially, the DHCP          operation has already been accomplished in a user's mind. In          the Internet, however, an IoT has to go through the process of          acquiring an IP address (yet temporary) from the network core          before it can operate, which means that an user can not          operate independently at well.

          4)    The above may be vague, unorganized, or philosophical.          This is because I just began to formulate this analytical          approach for visualizing the problem at hand. I believe that          we do need to exercise our minds from this angle, or similar          to be able to set the criteria and priority for qualifying an          application or operation. So that, we may have some chance to          achieve the goal of "decentralizing the Internet".

          5)    Essentially, I believe that if a user does not have a          permanent identity (static IP address) for communication          through a system, the operation becomes centralized by having          to rely upon a focal facility serving the coordination          functions.

          I look forward to your thoughts.

          Regards,

          Abe (2024-10-20 10:21 EDT) 

               

          On 2024-10-18 04:41, Dirk Kutscher wrote:
           Dear all,
            in Dublin, we are planning to continue our discussion on            next steps for DINRG.
            To that end, we are soliciting suggestions, interests            indications, and questions here. If you have a suggestion,            please feel free to share it here or by personal e-mail.
            We will collect everything and then prepare a summary before            the meeting.
            As a bit of background:
            As chartered, DINRG has different objectives:

    •              Investigation of the root causes of Internet              centralization, and articulation of the impacts of the              market economy, architecture and protocol designs, as well              as government regulations;

    •              Measurement of the Internet centralization and the              consequential societal impacts;

    •              Characterization and assessment of observed Internet              centralization;

    •              Development of a common terminology and understanding of              (de-)centralization;

    •              Interaction with the broader research community to explore              new research topics and technical solutions for              decentralized system and application development;

    •              Documentation of the outcome from the above efforts via              different means (e.g., research papers and RFCs) as inputs              to the broader conversation around centralization; and

    •              Facilitation of discussions between researchers,              organizations and individuals involved in Internet              standards and regulations.

            Let us know, which of these objectives should be emphasized            in your view, and whether you have specific interests within            these topics that should be discussed more.
            Best regards,
            Dirk and Lixia

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            _______________________________________________Din mailing list -- [e-mail] unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]        -- ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+ Dr. William Lehr Research Associate Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (CSAIL)  MIT Office:   Massachusetts Institute of Technology   32 Vassar Street (32-G532)   Cambridge, MA 02139     tel:     [phone]   fax:     [phone] Home Office (preferred):   94 Hubbard street   Concord, MA 01742   cell:    978-618-3775 (preferred)   fixed:   978-287-0525 website: http://csail.mit.edu/~wlehr email:   [e-mail]==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+  _______________________________________________
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