Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM
Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> Mon, 04 February 2019 15:34 UTC
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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 10:34:31 -0500
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To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM
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The idea is that the providers implement the sever side of the interface to be defined by this work, and someone writes a device side that works with any provider. The WebRTC idea is one way to build the device side. A native SIP implementation is another, probably more common way. The provider (server) side is all SIP all the time. Although we could require the providers to implement both RFC4103 and a WebRTC data channel containing RTT, I think that’s a poor way to do it. We are solving the problem at the moment, not defining the scope. I will adjust the charter language to allow gateways (“minimize the need for gateways” perhaps). > On Feb 2, 2019, at 8:29 PM, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote: > > On 2/2/19 6:18 PM, Brian Rosen wrote: >> Hmmm, yeah, we really need to keep RTT in RTP. >> We’ll have to use a gateway for that > > In the case of a call with an interpreter the provider can provide the gateway, or provide the interpreter with native text over data channel support. For a p2p call with another WebRTC user a gateway won't be needed. The only special case is a p2p call with one WebRTC endpoint and one native SIP endpoint. > > Thanks, > Paul > >> Yes emergency calls are in scope. >> Brian >> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:48 PM Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>>> wrote: >> So far, in tradiitional SIP based VRS, real-time text has been >> implemented with RTP, while in WebRTC it is supposed to use the data >> channel. How would you specify that interop without a media gateway? >> Another issue: should possibility to interop with emergency services >> be mentioned in the charter? I assume that such calls need to pass >> through the provider, and can be gatewayed ther, but there is a >> desire that all media is conveyed between the emergency service and >> the RUM and there might therefore be a need to consider this >> requirement when specifying the RUM interface. >> Regards >> Gunnar >> -------- Originalmeddelande -------- >> Från: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> >> <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>>> >> Datum: 2019-02-02 00:10 (GMT+01:00) >> Till: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net <mailto:br@brianrosen.net> <mailto:br@brianrosen.net <mailto:br@brianrosen.net>>> >> Kopia: DISPATCH list <dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org> <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>>> >> Rubrik: Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM >> Hi, >> >Yes, that’s the idea. I will work on some wording. I don’t want >> the charter to have a >> >list of such features. >> You could say that the profile will mandate all features needed in >> order to interoperate with WebRTC without having to use a media >> gateway, or something like that. >> Regards, >> Christer >> Brian >> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 5:30 PM Christer Holmberg >> <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> >> <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>>> wrote: >> Hi, >> >Can you suggest a wording change? >> Not at the moment, I first want to understand exactly what the >> scope and purpose is. >> >It now says "A WebRTC- based RUM could create a SIP interface >> (using, e.g., SIP over >> > WebSockets) towards the provider that conformed to the >> document RUM will produce. Such >an implementation should be >> possible, ideally without requiring a media gateway.” That >> >seems to me to be clear that the wg won’t do any work beyond >> making sure it’s possible to >create a WebRTC based RUM without >> a media gateway. >> If the WG is going to "make sure" that it works without a media >> gateway, does that mean that you would also mandate e.g., ICE, >> continuous consent, DTLS, and whatever other media level >> features might be mandated to support by WebRTC? If so, I think >> it needs to be very clear. >> Regards, >> Christer >> Brian >>> On Feb 1, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Christer Holmberg >>> <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> >>> <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >We want to make sure the mechanisms interact reasonably. We >>> suspect this is mostly codec >>> >choices, etc. >>> >>> Then you should say that a goal is interoperability with >>> WebRTC when it comes to codecs etc. >>> >>> The way I read the text now is that the WG is about writing >>> WebRTC SIP clients, which I assume is outside the scope😊 >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>>> On Feb 1, 2019, at 4:11 PM, Christer Holmberg >>>> <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> >>>> <mailto:christer..holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer..holmberg@ericsson.com>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> If the purpose of the WG is to define a SIP profile, I assume >>>> it does not matter if the SIP UAs are implemented using >>>> WebRTC or something else, so why does the charter need to >>>> talk about WebRTC? >>>> >>>> If you want to look at some of the specific network >>>> technologies used by WebRTC, e.g., the data channel, I think >>>> should talk about that instead. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Christer >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:*dispatch <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org> >>>> <mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org>>> on behalf of Brian Rosen >>>> <br@brianrosen.net <mailto:br@brianrosen.net> <mailto:br@brianrosen.net <mailto:br@brianrosen.net>>> >>>> *Sent:*Friday, February 1, 2019 10:50:53 PM >>>> *To:*DISPATCH list >>>> *Subject:*[dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM >>>> I would like dispatch to consider spinning up a mini-work >>>> group to create a sip device profile for use with Video Relay >>>> Services. >>>> >>>> >>>> The proposed charter is: >>>> >>>> Relay User Machine (rum) Working Group Proposed Charter >>>> ART Area >>>> >>>> Many current instances of Video Relay Service (VRS), >>>> (sometimes called Video Interpretation Service.), use the >>>> Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and other IETF multimedia >>>> protocols. VRSwhich is used bya service that deaf and hard- >>>> of- hearing persons and person with speech impairments use to >>>> communicate with hearing persons. The deaf, hard- of- >>>> hearing or speech-impaired person (D-HOH-SI) uses a SIP- >>>> based video phone to connect with an interpreter, and the >>>> interpreter places a phone call on the PSTN to the hearing >>>> person. The hearing person can also reach D-HOH-SI >>>> individuals by in the same manner as calling any other phone >>>> number. The D-HOH-SI person uses sign language and possibly >>>> real-time text with the interpreter and the interpreter uses >>>> spoken language with the hearing person, providing on- line, >>>> real- time, two- way communication. VRS services are often >>>> government- supported. In some countries, private companies >>>> provide the interpreters, and compete with one another. Often these companies use proprietary implementations for >>>> user devices as a means of vendor lock in. >>>> >>>> Having a standard interface between the end- user device and >>>> the VRS provider allows vendors and open-source developers to >>>> build devices that work with multiple service providers; >>>> devices can also be retained when changing providers. In >>>> this instance, “device” could be a purpose-built videophone >>>> or could be downloadable software on a general purpose >>>> computing platform or mobile phone. The SIP protocol is >>>> complex enough that some form of profiling is needed to >>>> achieve interoperability between devices and providers. To >>>> ensure interoperability of the key features of this service, >>>> certain aspects (e.g., codecs, media transport, and SIP >>>> features) must be specified as mandatory-to-implement for >>>> SIP-based VRS devices. These specified features effectively >>>> form a profile for SIP and the media it negotiates. >>>> >>>> This working group will produce a single document: a profile >>>> of SIP and media features for use with video relay services >>>> (which includes video, real time text, and audio), and other >>>> similar interpretation services that require multimedia. It >>>> will reference the IETF’s current thinking on multimedia >>>> communicationsuch devices, including references to work >>>> beyond SIP (e.g., WebRTC and SLIM). No protocol changes are >>>> anticipated by this work. >>>> >>>> While WebRTC could be used to implement a RUM, the group’s >>>> work will focusis on the device-to-provider interface. A >>>> WebRTC- based RUM couldwould create a SIP interface (using, >>>> e.g., SIP over WebSockets) towards the provider that >>>> conformed to the document RUMrum will produce. Such an >>>> implementation should be possible, ideally without requiring >>>> a media gateway. >>>> >>>> The scope of the work includes mechanisms to provision the >>>> user’s device with common features such as speed dial lists, >>>> provider to contact, videomail service interface point and >>>> similar items. These features allow users to more easily >>>> switch providers temporarily (a feature known as “dial >>>> around”) or permanently, while retaining their data. >>>> >>>> Devices used in VRS can be used to place point- to- point >>>> calls, i.e., where both communicating parties use sign >>>> language. When used for point-to-point calling where the >>>> participants are not served by the same VRS provider, or when >>>> one provider provides the originating multimedia transport >>>> environment, but another provides the interpreter >>>> (“dial-around call”), the call traverses two providers. Both >>>> of these uses impose additional requirements on a RUMrum >>>> device and are in scope for this work. >>>> >>>> Although the interface between providers also requires >>>> standardization to enable multi-provider point-to-point >>>> calls, that interface has already been defined in a SIP >>>> Forum document and is thus out of scope for RUM. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> dispatch mailing list >>>> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org> <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch> >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch> > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch>
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Christer Holmberg
- [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Christer Holmberg
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Christer Holmberg
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Christer Holmberg
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen
- [dispatch] Fwd: Request DISPATCH of RUM Mary Barnes
- Re: [dispatch] Fwd: Request DISPATCH of RUM Eric Burger
- Re: [dispatch] Fwd: Request DISPATCH of RUM Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] Fwd: Request DISPATCH of RUM Roni Even (A)
- [dispatch] DISPATCH of JCS Anders Rundgren
- Re: [dispatch] DISPATCH of JCS Dale R. Worley
- Re: [dispatch] DISPATCH of JCS Anders Rundgren
- Re: [dispatch] DISPATCH of JCS Dale R. Worley
- Re: [dispatch] Fwd: Request DISPATCH of RUM Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] Request DISPATCH of RUM Brian Rosen