[dispatch] DISPATCH processes (was Re: DISPATCH agenda @ IETF-104)

Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> Sat, 23 March 2019 11:10 UTC

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Subject: [dispatch] DISPATCH processes (was Re: DISPATCH agenda @ IETF-104)
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Speaking as out-going AD and incoming-co-chair who was on vacation when all the agenda stuff needed to happen:

(First, I am not picking on Martin’s comments; it just seemed like a good point to jump into the conversation.)

Mary had to deal with the agenda by herself (as in no co-chair and very little AD support) for this meeting. That left very little time for making changes or optimizations to the way we have historically presented these things. I am probably more to blame for that than anyone, for the reasons in my opening line to this email.

DISPATCH holds a special place as the working group that most new ART participants will experience first. I fully agree that we need to work on making things easier for new participants, without making it tedious for old-hands. There are some obvious things we can do based on the discussion so far, and there may be room for other innovations and experiments moving forward.

I propose that for now we focus on getting through the agenda we have for Monday and the related discussion topics, then afterwards continue a discussion to get input on what would work best for people going forward. That way we can have that discussion without the pressure of a meeting only 2 days away.

Thanks!

Ben.

> On Mar 21, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
> 
> Cullen's points are valid here, but I was making a simple request for courtesy and respect.
> 
> If the critical information is in an email, it is more readily available.  That's a tiny bit more work to provide, but a great help to people looking to prepare for the meeting.  The TLS agenda, for example, was very helpful.
> 
> For instance, I had real trouble finding Bron's post until I went to the wiki.  I started to look for a draft, draft-gondwana-*, draft-*-jmap-*, draft-jenkins-*, no luck. I searched my mail for emails, I got none because the email had a misspelled title, and the journey to find the wiki on a phone is distressingly long and the site agonizingly slow.  The direct link, once I had it, was fine, of course.
> 
> None of this is terribly hard to deal with, but it's a bit of burden.  It's possible that it is harder for me because I have inbuilt expectations about how people present their ideas.
> 
> I wonder if there is a tools enhancement we might have: the ability to build an agenda based on drafts (and uploaded slides).  Manually building all that stuff only takes 10 minutes, but I'll bet that it could be cut down to 2 minutes for most groups, and produce a more usable product.
> 
> --Martin
> 
> p.s., I don't think anyone was asking you not to use the wiki.  Though Cullen is right that all the stuff that happens out of sight without a good record is not good.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2019, at 02:18, Mary Barnes wrote:
>> So, where do you propose we store all this information for archival?
>> 
>> This really comes down to an earlier discussion on one of the other
>> general lists that a lot of history is lost. That wiki is the history
>> of what happened to all the work items since we started DISPATCH. Yes,
>> we have minutes, etc. but that doesn't give you the complete picture as
>> a lot of things happen actually NOT on public lists - e.g., the AD
>> sponsored documents go off and discussions are between AD and authors,
>> when WGs are chartered, there's a lot of out of band discussion, etc.
>> Do you propose that all those discussions happen on the mailing list
>> for archival?
>> 
>> Can we add a page to the datatracker for each WG so that we can store
>> information like this? The only other thing I can think of is that we
>> just post it periodically on the mailing list if you want guaranteed
>> archival.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Mary.
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:00 AM Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’m reading this on a plane and don’t have access to the WIKI, and 10 years from now when I am trying to find prior are for a patent trial, all the content of the Wiki will not be archived.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 19, 2019, at 4:35 PM, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I agree with Martin. I don't know how to find these documents. Where is the wiki?
>>>> 
>>>> The URL is the answer.
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Mar 14, 2019, at 16:16, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
>>>>> Hello everybody,
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2019/03/14 02:13, Mary Barnes wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We have uploaded a preliminary agenda for DISPATCH:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for putting this together.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/
>>>>> 
>>>>> This may be just an oversight, but in general, I very much prefer to
>>>>> have the agenda (and other, similarly short stuff) inline in my inbox.
>>>>> That saves me (and everybody else) a click (or two, plus some on-page
>>>>> search time, this time). Of course it can change later, but we all know
>>>>> that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The actual agenda is at
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/agenda-104-dispatch-00.
>>>>> In the future, precise links would be appreciated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The agenda currently reads as follows:
>>>>> 
>>>>> # Draft Agenda Dispatch @IETF-104 - v1
>>>>> 
>>>>> DISPATCH Meeting
>>>>> -------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> # Status and agenda bash - Chairs (10 min)
>>>>> 
>>>>> # Relay User Machine (RUM) - Brian Rosen (20 min)
>>>>> 
>>>>> # JSON Contact - Bron Gondwana (20 min)
>>>>> 
>>>>> # Web Packaging - Jeffrey Yasskin (20 min)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Note: see DISPATCH wiki for additional links to materials
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ART AREA Meeting
>>>>> -------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> # Bofs and meetings of interest - ADs (5 min)
>>>>> 
>>>>> # JSON Canonicalization Scheme (JCS) - Anders Rundgren (20)
>>>>> Document: draft-rundgren-json-canonicalization-scheme
>>>>> 
>>>>> # AOB
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Mary.
>>>>>> DISPATCH WG co-chair
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>> From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 9:59 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Topics for DISPATCH @ IETF-104
>>>>>> To: DISPATCH <dispatch@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Cc: ART ADs <art-ads@ietf.org>rg>, dispatch chairs <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The wiki has been updated with the topics that have been agreed to be
>>>>>> discussed at IETF-104: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/dispatch/wiki/WikiStart
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The proposal for moving forward draft-dold-payto is still being discussed
>>>>>> amongst ADS/chairs as is the JSON Canonicalization that had been proposed
>>>>>> as a BoF in the SEC Area, but was not approved.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We will post any updates to the wiki and will post an agenda shortly.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As a reminder, if you are submitting drafts for discussion in the dispatch
>>>>>> working group following the standard convention of including the WG name in
>>>>>> the draft name (i.e., draft-<name>-dispatch-blah-blah) makes it *much*
>>>>>> easier for me as chair to make sure I have the right documents identified
>>>>>> on the wiki and on the agenda. The tool will allow you to indicate that
>>>>>> the document with the new name replaces the document with the old name if
>>>>>> that's a concern.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>> DISPATCH WG co-chair
>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> dispatch mailing list
>>>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> dispatch mailing list
>>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dispatch mailing list
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 
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