Re: [dispatch] HELIUM at Dispatch

Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com> Wed, 11 July 2018 20:02 UTC

Return-Path: <bemasc@google.com>
X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567881277BB for <dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:02:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -17.51
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5HjPFutDOPP for <dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io0-x232.google.com (mail-io0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22821124C04 for <dispatch@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io0-x232.google.com with SMTP id k3-v6so25459018iog.3 for <dispatch@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jeBDxM+qHN7Jvy3/biCXkbQ3C+E5xk09ShafYVf6LQE=; b=RNlKbJsEKGihqZkQ1iPA7UXMATtuMDqdxGpZg8UzQmNytQRP6iiXXZVe4uwsTx+wL+ Oj2qM7p79Ms78LeC5CQoVmcbX+jM4ltTLU4CLfjLmEkonhD9MTRV0cB9Nz110U2a+uub 253NyXNB8O8QnGQKwjPZwqh0M1ehb7gBzfkvH0f4VfHahc9TfQREmB4FCly3fWVNwUSJ VTaDFbZzJH/PWY8CwMriS/LkXwqOSHhDt5CXDenc0kv9gHoV/Sy2TDoOJPUd4Ju4/eHE gKBOnORxhR87YXa5xxCD34rrjMU4C8e2+E0Jh8leCLSnfGasR07y587YTn45e4q8ftfK Vuuw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jeBDxM+qHN7Jvy3/biCXkbQ3C+E5xk09ShafYVf6LQE=; b=csdRHHfLSHj8+PeYvdIWuL8IR4zWQ0f0d4z7cNT3DauImclZ1dNrQE9LnYwj+m1B+j 7TLChRj6wDdBJ1ZT8mA2lBDsBxHa7vjZqR8uPwfl1nF1zT3zz8FhrVTz4d9GS50qt/Ui 51qS/jQ6U6ebOsLBdyCo1/7znZdNx6K42aJcRilW4LZbC4A0T4sHsg39fE6+KgoUsq8f U6pIYg4h2QWwKBHXygl0DGb/kdr99rewg/utSQyB+s8UEvGYG1TmdJ2xTRkoxG2h+nzm 14uCl7XcAKVfDQNO6F34WlJxvvQ4pP0qtCvOwYs3ia2kEdyhf9JpGK3wMcCEsHRpnCdm DsXw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGEtZmN7m52ylJFHZ35qTGf4xiglXMJiuMJ3qj/RNCzOjuLN341 NTOrXw6vcB2ylPn4nhKzJC7w58pghrtN9BVeCCpc/lFD
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeSEW4V7bVEo1rTY75JcJCNIS+XUHogwoQ44VhHu1DlcImS0FKvS8E7qMBiQTXRA8u0X5E3xdhfcxNn3QuXMdg=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:cd83:: with SMTP id d125-v6mr530176iog.370.1531339368903; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAHbrMsCpBV+GWcOeXEZ9K9ZrdajhdyGNhpjoGOOjadsC5yx7rA@mail.gmail.com> <3dd27329-e0e8-5e85-c1f9-f12e584a980b@nostrum.com>
In-Reply-To: <3dd27329-e0e8-5e85-c1f9-f12e584a980b@nostrum.com>
From: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:02:30 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHbrMsAXFBq2Qi+3Ar4gyzAsqAKbdAovwCf3q9PesPjM3zwSnQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Cc: Dispatch WG <dispatch@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000028b4c70570bebb2b"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/Lz4dIYY_RM43o5H9MZGMWChgdE8>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] HELIUM at Dispatch
X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List <dispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dispatch>, <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch>, <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:02:53 -0000

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 3:15 PM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

> [as an individual]
>
> This is small, but it's going to be a recurring papercut if this works
> gains traction: I'm having a really hard time reading a document talking
> about "HIP" that is in no way related to
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/hip/about/ -- please consider renaming
> this protocol.
>

OK, will do.

It would probably also be worthwhile explaining how the features of HELIUM
> are significantly different than RFC 1928. I see raw IP tunneling and
> WebSocket support as differentiators, but it's not clear that this requires
> restarting the protocol from ground zero rather than extending an existing
> extensible protocol.
>
> Lest my suggestion above be perceived as tongue-in-cheek, I'm dead
> serious: RFC 1928 is used extensively by the Tor network, and there is a
> fair body of deployed code in modern use, at least in that context.
>

I've written a lot of code for RFC 1928 (SOCKS 5) myself, including the
rarely used SOCKS5-UDP support, so I fully appreciate this.  Alternatively
TURN also supports UDP, and with RFC 6062 can proxy TCP too.  I do feel
that a clean-slate design is worthwhile in this case, but you're right that
I haven't really tried to argue that in the draft.  I'll think about the
right way to make that claim.


>
> /a
>
> On 7/11/18 12:27 PM, Ben Schwartz wrote:
>
> Hi Dispatch,
>
> One of the drafts on the Dispatch agenda for next week is HELIUM:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schwartz-httpbis-helium-00.
>
> There has been some discussion on the HTTP list (e.g.
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2018JulSep/0041.html),
> but the most detailed presentation on this proposal will be here in
> Dispatch.
>
> HELIUM has relevance to privacy protection, P2P through NAT, VPNs,
> advanced IP features, QUIC, and congestion control, among other topics.  I
> hope anyone who's interested will read the draft (or at least the
> introduction) before our session on Monday.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing listdispatch@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
>
>