Re: [dispatch] Fwd: DISPATCH agenda @ IETF-104

Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> Wed, 20 March 2019 14:30 UTC

Return-Path: <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A4312799B for <dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 07:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V7nXsh1obQp8 for <dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 07:30:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x141.google.com (mail-lf1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D9DE126D00 for <dispatch@ietf.org>; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 07:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x141.google.com with SMTP id d18so2077150lfn.3 for <dispatch@ietf.org>; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 07:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=26QdEFVT05B7vDeH/h/lorBBRZP7pKWLn3zaObaWIQ4=; b=cWt4KzURZnpU2OKrcunokYIJsAXN+zLFLempEP1o3jiPQshbv3Hlzf0aeiG961S6ba OWyPFp8atJobTI9BCTLj69COuvbhv9xf0zZQTef7MSk5c2J5ljYKtGVusVaE9YtFue08 IP0hgkOOuEf9Oouwu4khN0gS2Fb387MMZ/w8W3rDFom8za6A2PnKDX56yQZUtPRHaoP/ Ddhffpdp2x80RcVXNyKKPPjDGOZvOqD5MWeOF/rgfeO1lCsv0101L6Xl73/BieD0LB/v 1m+taiF+huCBI8AU73RCt2C09UVcnViylJ/diNLAq6b5U912QJ4Zr4ra7GkrcoNNSy+f gjBg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=26QdEFVT05B7vDeH/h/lorBBRZP7pKWLn3zaObaWIQ4=; b=cjhGuCgvmjiWWr0Wx2Uc1HO7kahAkTqe9kruWS8HdHVKrV7oQB4QpHUAQSOs62xIBM taHFW2L/gDat6Q5d3iIL5xhElT42tt3LD+Tj9C8CClSI2K8NEVxGNsHbohpf4fcKEbii mx9ua0qWikJq2bJEWxLuZSjit33qjZUmaF4YH0B2ykg99O3ChMovIm5kmakI9gYt9HxV RZgX1cAewUDPMVbvo7P2X+mQos55ID/m6Kd/5eyGi9XQZspHLMgw5VQazM7so3aaZqb9 qX66PNW29VRyOmQrQulMYG+ivXk6iwtodTMNlh7PNZuDGLKwP27T733fCsNQHj4XBfAA WOZA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVchg7tB/3UWqJb+sN9Hyc5U2xS/uHRbtw+/XHAhybe9c++DTWH WrUE/+7z7CTgphV0cdW+LTzc5bapWRWaf1L5xghY5Fnw
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwXghEmU2aShkrZKm4mxcsY9lkATk67dKdKv0YLZUuuqIiY5nBnor4363YE2xubFBak9mXKy1cn1xPM9l4v7c4=
X-Received: by 2002:ac2:55ba:: with SMTP id y26mr6486575lfg.145.1553092242424; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 07:30:42 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAHBDyN5s727gS=W2bcRhZJGY_bXMzp6RagnJAnZqM8w1RB7MHQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAHBDyN63jzjrh3virjEko8B4oeXNC=bqNZaXz-03L4vKSVnjDw@mail.gmail.com> <a4146a99-f713-a393-aa3f-55c3e764abc0@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <3c9085a4-3348-489b-8a42-545f686c017a@www.fastmail.com> <CAHBDyN7e+6PJOWPXQc3JdU0xpDQy9z1CunrXF2sQ2O84aO3AUg@mail.gmail.com> <CAHBDyN6oN+40aFMcZEoycdFc-f49gxUa-b5vScTOToyxD0ou3g@mail.gmail.com> <3baa9d13-400a-bdda-0eb7-2bb759c4a04b@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
In-Reply-To: <3baa9d13-400a-bdda-0eb7-2bb759c4a04b@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:30:30 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHBDyN7sm=uVGgQTg3ZTqjcZw09mppGG7pdhDVsQi2oaQD1oWA@mail.gmail.com>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Cc: DISPATCH <dispatch@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069c6bd058487774a"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/SDirxXBAI-1T6qO9acgxcNVazBs>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] Fwd: DISPATCH agenda @ IETF-104
X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List <dispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dispatch>, <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch>, <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 14:30:48 -0000

Responses below [MB]

On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 9:56 PM Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
wrote:

> Hello Mary,
>
> On 2019/03/20 08:06, Mary Barnes wrote:
> > DISPATCH wiki is here and was posted in earlier email messages:
> > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/dispatch/wiki
> > Every WG has such a wiki although few use it.
>
> Yes indeed. In my more than 25 years of IETF involvement (on and off),
> it's probably the first time I have looked at such a wiki. If other WGs
> don't use it, it's difficult to get the hang of it.
>
[MB] Well, we've been using it in dispatch for 10 years and anytime I
mention deadlines, etc., I always point to the wiki.   You can google IETF
and wiki and see many.  And, if you're not aware there is also an IETF
meeting wiki for each meeting. So, I'm surprised actually that experienced
people don't know about wikis.  [/MB]

>
> Also, if you think the wiki is important, it would be good to add a link
> to the agenda. Currently, the wiki only shows which drafts are up, but
> not timing or presenters.
>
[MB] I added it just after I sent the email yesterday. And, the agenda
shows the timing, so I'm not sure the concern. [/MB]

>
> And it's not really about me or the other Martin, it's also about
> newcomers.

[MB] Given as you note below that work happens on the mailing list, I would
expect newcomers interested in the WG to have at least browsed the mailing
list archives. The email about the topics shows up nicely on the first
screen whenlooking at the archives. [/MB]

>


> > It would be super easy to find the documents if authors would actually
> > follow the recommendation and include -dispatch in the document name.
> It's
> > not clear to me why folks can't seem to follow that.  You can find links
> to
> > relevant documents in the threads posted on the wiki.
> >
> > We actually haven't routinely sent an email when we've uploaded the
> > agenda.   I think I'll not bother doing that next time since I assume
> > everyone knows how to find meeting materials and knows how to click links
> > to find WG agendas.
>
> First, I don't think everybody does know all these details. And even if
> they know, it's quite a few clicks.
>

[MB] Honestly, since the website update, I can't find a single thing
without oodles of clicks.  IF I don't have something book marked, I find it
far easier to just google to find that right page - the new IETF homepage
might be pretty for the world, but it doesn't facilitate finding stuff for
those of us doing the work. [/MB]

>
> But what's much more important is that if you don't announce that the WG
> agenda is up, nobody except you knows when to go and check out the
> agenda. I think people have better ways to spend their time than
> checking every day whether the agenda is up.
>
> Sending things such as the agenda (or at least an 'agenda is up, it's
> here' signal) to the mailing list can also be seen as part of the
> principle that all WG decisions are confirmed on the mailing list.
>
[MB] And, that I did. The fact that one of your complaints is that you had
to scroll and then click is the thing I find a little strange.  Usually
before a meeting I go to the exact page I pointed you too, and pull down
materials for each of the WGs I'm attending, so I never imagined that
posting that link would be deemed a terrible inconvenience.   I followed
the format for agenda that Murray had been using since he became a co-chair
- zero complaints ever that we didn't post an agenda nor about the format.
I thought the links in the wiki for the discussion, which has links to the
documents was far more useful.  IN particular, DISPATCH isn't about
reviewing a single document. It's about discussing topics and deciding if
there's a problem there that we think needs to be solved and review a
proposal on how to do that, which might or might not have a related draft
or charter.

I only posted the note about the agenda  as a courtesy because we didn't
have it fully settled by the time I updated the wiki and posted that
email.   You might want to bring up this point to other WG chairs as I've
only seen one other WG post an agenda for this meeting (that was actually
TSV Area I think).  Of course, only 7 of 15 WGs have posted agendas at this
time although a couple aren't meeting.  If posting the content of agendas
on the list is deemed a requirement in following our process, someone
should probably add that to the WG chairs wiki.

I used to do beautiful agendas with all the hyperlinks, etc. and not a
single time did anyone ever say thanks for theoretically making their job
easier. Of course, that's the IETF way - never thank someone for doing
something, but always complain if they've done something you deem wrong.
So, hopefully this thread provides a nice introduction for newcomers on how
we interact in IETF as a whole.  [/MB]

>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
>
> > Regards,
> > Mary.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 5:35 PM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with Martin. I don't know how to find these documents. Where is
> >> the wiki?
> >>
> >> The URL is the answer.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2019, at 16:16, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
> >>> Hello everybody,
> >>>
> >>> On 2019/03/14 02:13, Mary Barnes wrote:
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> We have uploaded a preliminary agenda for DISPATCH:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for putting this together.
> >>>
> >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/
> >>>
> >>> This may be just an oversight, but in general, I very much prefer to
> >>> have the agenda (and other, similarly short stuff) inline in my inbox.
> >>> That saves me (and everybody else) a click (or two, plus some on-page
> >>> search time, this time). Of course it can change later, but we all know
> >>> that.
> >>>
> >>> The actual agenda is at
> >>>
> >>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/agenda-104-dispatch-00
> ..
> >>
> >>> In the future, precise links would be appreciated.
> >>>
> >>> The agenda currently reads as follows:
> >>>
> >>> # Draft Agenda Dispatch @IETF-104 - v1
> >>>
> >>> DISPATCH Meeting
> >>> -------------------
> >>>
> >>> # Status and agenda bash - Chairs (10 min)
> >>>
> >>> # Relay User Machine (RUM) - Brian Rosen (20 min)
> >>>
> >>> # JSON Contact - Bron Gondwana (20 min)
> >>>
> >>> # Web Packaging - Jeffrey Yasskin (20 min)
> >>>
> >>> Note: see DISPATCH wiki for additional links to materials
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ART AREA Meeting
> >>> -------------------
> >>>
> >>> # Bofs and meetings of interest - ADs (5 min)
> >>>
> >>> # JSON Canonicalization Scheme (JCS) - Anders Rundgren (20)
> >>>     Document: draft-rundgren-json-canonicalization-scheme
> >>>
> >>> # AOB
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Mary.
> >>>> DISPATCH WG co-chair
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >>>> From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
> >>>> Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 9:59 AM
> >>>> Subject: Topics for DISPATCH @ IETF-104
> >>>> To: DISPATCH <dispatch@ietf.org>
> >>>> Cc: ART ADs <art-ads@ietf.org>rg>, dispatch chairs <
> >> dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> The wiki has been updated with the topics that have been agreed to be
> >>>> discussed at IETF-104:
> >> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/dispatch/wiki/WikiStart
> >>>>
> >>>> The proposal for moving forward draft-dold-payto is still being
> >> discussed
> >>>> amongst ADS/chairs as is the JSON Canonicalization that had been
> >> proposed
> >>>> as a BoF in the SEC Area, but was not approved.
> >>>>
> >>>> We will post any updates to the wiki and will post an agenda shortly.
> >>>>
> >>>> As a reminder, if you are submitting drafts for discussion in the
> >> dispatch
> >>>> working group following the standard convention of including the WG
> >> name in
> >>>> the draft name (i.e., draft-<name>-dispatch-blah-blah)  makes it
> *much*
> >>>> easier for me as chair to make sure I have the right documents
> >> identified
> >>>> on the wiki and on the agenda.   The tool will allow you to indicate
> >> that
> >>>> the document with the new name replaces the document with the old name
> >> if
> >>>> that's a concern.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Mary
> >>>> DISPATCH WG co-chair
>
>