Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Fri, 11 September 2020 11:19 UTC
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" <sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io>, "rlb@ipv.sx" <rlb@ipv.sx>
CC: "sframe-chairs@ietf.org" <sframe-chairs@ietf.org>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "sframe@ietf.org" <sframe@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:19:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Hi, > > So do I assume correctly that the idea is that the application layer > > using SFRAME if it haves multiple independent or sets of dependent > > streams there will be no support for that aspect in SFRAME layer? > > Instead it is up to the application to put such information to either > > put it inside the encapsualted part of the SFRAME or map it to the > > lower transport layer, like to RTP SSRCs and extension information. > > > If i understood you correctly, SFrame is kind of agnostic to the media > streams. Currently it has a single global frame counter for all the transport, so > the number of streams/dependency between them is not known/needed > by SFrame. Yes, and when using a multi-stream application with layered encoding being protected by SFRAME and transported over RTP with repair functions the high layer application will need to have a model for how it maps individual SFRAMEs to RTP layer functions to enable them to do their work. You get a very limited functionality if in an SFU system tries to send all over a single RTP SSRC. So this becomes a discussion in the RTP Payload format context when carrying SFRAMEs. > > > > > >> However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP > >> using a new packetization format, we need to address how to negotiate > >> that in the SDP. > > Good > > > >> Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for > >> transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other > >> audio/video frames. > > I understand the potential exists. However, the recommendation for RTP > > has been to try to consider Application Level Framing. In the case of > > SFRAME that consideration moves up above SFRAME in the choice of how > > data is split into SFRAMEs. However, having an RTP paylaod format for > > SFRAME, then that should carry SFRAMEs. If you starts putting in other > > binary objects into it, then you create a new demultiplexing point for > > format between the RTP payload format and the SFRAME processing. That > appears unmotivated. > > > Note that SFRAME is not the only encryption possible with w3c insertable > streams, it is up to the application to define its own crypto if they want. So > the payload must be able to transport non-SFRAME opaque blobs. So I would consider this a misuse of the RTP payload format. The media type will be for SFRAMEs. I understand that you might not be able to prevent this in WebRTC. However, from an interoperability point of view you will be stating that this is SFRAMEs. RTP will not be able to tell a difference. But I don't see that this is will explicitly support carrying other things than SFRAME. Because that means bringing in other consideration including the security model for the E2E usage. > > > > Should the RTP payload format aspect of the charter be more explicit > > in that it needs to disucss the general model of how to use SFRAME and > > how an application can use the facilities of RTP to get good > > performance from RTP mechanism like FEC and retransmission? > > > I don't think so, RTX and FEC frames MUST not be modified/affected by > SFRAME/the new packetization format, so they work out of the box. We can > be explicit about that in the chapter as a requirement. > So I am not saying that RTX or FEC shall be modified. What I am saying is that the SFRAME payload format should discuss the impact on the performance of these functions depending on how you structure the SFRAMES across SSRCs. The most simple example is the one where you put all layers for a video encoding in a single SSRC. In such a stream you loose a single RTP packet between the transmitting end-point and the SFU. Now the SFU is only forwarding the base layer and not the enhancement layers. If base layer and enhancement layer share RTP stream, the SFU can't determine if the missing packet contains an base layer data or enhancement layer data. If the base layer and enhancement layer would be on different SSRC, the fact that there is a missing packet on the enhancement layer RTP stream means that the SFU can ignore that as it anyway are not forwarding it. This same argument can be applied between media sources. So how you map your application level structures onto RTP do matter for the resulting performance of RTP. Putting all on a single SSRC is not a path to good transport performance. Cheers Magnus Westerlund
- [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-i… Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker
- Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on chart… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on chart… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on chart… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on chart… westhawk
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Richard Barnes
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Emad Omara
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block… Emad Omara