Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband Audio Codec WG
Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> Mon, 01 June 2009 22:02 UTC
Return-Path: <eburger@standardstrack.com>
X-Original-To: dispatch@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dispatch@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2359C3A6A4F for <dispatch@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.144
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.144 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FJDTe6MIfWw4 for <dispatch@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gs19.inmotionhosting.com (gs19.inmotionhosting.com [205.134.252.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B3B3A69AB for <dispatch@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 224.sub-97-22-24.myvzw.com ([97.22.24.224]) by gs19.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <eburger@standardstrack.com>) id 1MBFaF-0001zx-5i; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:02:22 -0700
Message-Id: <5B65DEDD-2877-41A3-9311-2BD93E39B510@standardstrack.com>
From: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
To: Henry Sinnreich <hsinnrei@adobe.com>
In-Reply-To: <C6456D5B.3DA1%hsinnrei@adobe.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail-264--701429739"; micalg="sha1"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:02:22 -0400
References: <C6456D5B.3DA1%hsinnrei@adobe.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3)
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gs19.inmotionhosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com
X-Source:
X-Source-Args:
X-Source-Dir:
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband Audio Codec WG
X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List <dispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch>, <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dispatch>
List-Post: <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch>, <mailto:dispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 22:02:32 -0000
I again have to point out, as I did with iLBC, that just because something is Open Source and submitted Without IPR and, as proposed here, done in a non-IPR regime, does NOT necessarily mean the result is without encumbrances. Since I like to keep people away from trouble, I won't quote existing IPR. Let's look at some expired IPR instead. If your proposed codec used LPC, it would violate a Philips patent. For that matter, it would step on a handful of TI patents. I would guess (but I have NOT done a search), if the proposed codec used FFT, DCT, physiological modeling, filtering, etc., it would step on a handful of patents. I would offer the math work for developing a codec is something outside the IETF area of expertise. I suppose it is right and proper to ask the question, as to counter Joel's take-it-to-the-logical- conclusion the IETF should do everything (not), one could ask if the IETF should not ever do anything new (I would offer: not). I would also offer the protocol work for such a codec is something the IETF really, really should do. If that work is somehow different than the AVT work, for example, if such a codec required a transport that RTP/SRTP cannot provide, then a new work group would be in order. My vote is the IETF does not have the expertise to do the math part. My vote is the IETF has the best expertise for the protocol part. On May 29, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Henry Sinnreich wrote: > Spencer, > > Yes, your points show exactly why we need a new WG in the IETF > chartered specifically for a standard for an Internet voice (and why > not video as well) codec. > > The _global_ standard nature, royalty free, open source aspects will > most likely warm the heart of most Internet folks. > > The determining factor will be if there are contributors willing to > do the work of writing the I-Ds for the requirements, algorithm, > code and last but not least show measurements about performance. I > see signs that we may have very valuable contributions. > > We can gage the interest for such a WG by the attendance in the BOF > at the 75 IETF in July. > Please just give it a chance. > We may soon be in the fortunate position to finally have an Internet > voice codec standard! > > Henry > > > On 5/29/09 9:56 AM, "Spencer Dawkins" <spencer@wonderhamster.org> > wrote: > > Hi, Henry, > > I may have misunderstood Roni's point, but I thought that he was > saying that audio codec types don't participate in the IETF today, > because the IETF does not develop audio codecs (and AVT is > prohibited by charter from producing one, because of a stated belief > that we don't have the expertise in the IETF to do this work). > > Thanks, > > Spencer > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Henry Sinnreich <mailto:hsinnrei@adobe.com> > > To: Roni Even <mailto:ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> ; Jason Fischl <mailto:jason.fischl@skype.net > > ; dispatch@ietf.org > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:28 AM > > Subject: Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband Audio > Codec WG > > > Roni, > > Sorry, we have here a fundamental disagreement. > The IETF is chartered for Internet standards and may or may not > chose solutions that apply to ITU-T networks. > The Internet has different criteria than ITU-T networks may have. > A worldwide Internet standard for a wideband codec will be very > beneficial IMO. > > Henry > > > On 5/28/09 9:45 AM, "Roni Even" <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > Like you mention other SDOs like ITU-T are doing just that. They > have the > expertise to specify, and evaluate the result. These SDOs can receive > requirements and select a proper codec based on the requirements. > > > As for the other reasons: > > 1. Defining a codec in the IETF or even in MPEG / ITU-T does not > make it a > mandatory part of a system solution, this is done by other standard > bodies > like 3GPP, ETSI. > > 2. The IETF, similar to other standard bodies is not rubber > stamping a > specific solution, so you will most probably see in the final > result some > technology that carry IPR. > > 3. If this group will be established, you will probably see here > the audio > experts now working in ITU-T arguing the same issues since they are > the > expertise you need and they work for the same companies that are > already > members of IETF. > > I think that if you have a specific codec in mind you can make it > publicly > available maybe with quality results and standardized in AVT a > payload > specification. > > BTW: The ITU is keeping a list of codecs (Not only ITU-T ones) in a > table > that describes their features. > > Regards > Roni Even > > -----Original Message----- > From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf > Of Jason Fischl > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 2:18 AM > To: dispatch@ietf.org > Subject: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband Audio Codec WG > > All, > > I would like to request agenda time inside the DISPATCH meeting to > propose > the formation of a new working group to define a Proposed Standard > wideband > audio codec. > > The text of the proposal is below. Comments, questions, and > suggestions > welcomed. > > Regards, > Jason > > > Internet Wideband Audio Codec (IWAC) > Mailing Lists: TBD > Chairs: TBD > Area Directorate: Real Time Applications (RAI) > > Purpose: > > This new working group would be chartered with the purpose of > collecting > expertise within the IETF in order to review the design of audio > codecs > specifically for use with the Internet. Unlike other SDOs, these > codecs > would be optimized for use on the Internet, and as much as possible > choose > technology that does not require paying patent royalties. > > The Internet Low Bit Rate Codec (iLBC) work was done in AVT but it > was felt > that subsequent work should not be done in the AVT working group. > This new > working group will have as its primary purpose the standardization > of a > multi-purpose audio codec that can be used in various situations on > the > Internet. Some of the proposed Internet-specific requirements > include: > * scalable and adaptive bit rate; > * various sampling rate profiles from narrow-band to super-wideband; > * scalable complexity; > * low latency; and > * resilience to packet loss. > > There are a number of wide-band capable codecs defined by other > SDOs. For > instance, G.722 is seeing adoption in Enterprise applications since > it is > relatively simple and low-cost to deploy. However, it has a high, > fixed > bitrate and is not appropriate for mobile applications where spectrum > efficiency is important or in consumer applications where available > bandwidth is fluctuating or limited. G.722.2 (AMR-wideband) has > been adopted > by the 3GPP as a wideband standard for mobile applications. G.722.2 > is > relatively high cost due to patent royalties and is seeing minimal > deployments outside of mobile handsets making it challenging to > create > wideband experiences on Internet-capable mobile devices when > extending > beyond the mobile network. In other cases, proprietary codecs are > being > adopted which further create islands with no interoperability unless > widespread transcoding is performed. Transcoding leads to higher > costs and > lower quality. > > The goal of this working group is to define a single codec with > multiple > profiles which can be made available on a wide variety of Internet- > capable > devices including low-power, mobile devices as well as devices > capable of > utilizing high quality, high bitrate audio. > > Proposed Deliverables: > > 1) Requirements for wideband, Internet audio codec(s). > 2) Algorithm description for wideband, Internet audio codec(s) as > Proposed > Standard. > 3) Specification of payload format(s) for defined codecs as Proposed > Standard > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
- [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband Aud… Jason Fischl
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Eric Burger
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Roni Even
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Scott Lawrence
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Jason Fischl
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Roni Even
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Roni Even
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Roni Even
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Mary Barnes
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Eric Burger
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… eburger
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Roni Even
- Re: [dispatch] Proposal to form Internet Wideband… Slava Borilin
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Roni Even
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… James M. Polk
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Slava Borilin
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… stephen botzko
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… stephen botzko
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… stephen botzko
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… David Singer
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… David Singer
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Randell Jesup
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Slava Borilin
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Eric Burger
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Eric Burger
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Dan York
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Jason Fischl
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Christopher Montgomery
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [dispatch] [AVT] Proposal to form Internet Wi… Michael Ramalho (mramalho)