[dmarc-ietf] LSAP - Lightweight Signer Authorization Protocol methodology
Hector Santos <hsantos@isdg.net> Fri, 31 July 2020 16:57 UTC
Return-Path: <hsantos@isdg.net>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A093A09EF for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 09:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SPOOF_COM2COM=0.001, SPOOF_COM2OTH=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isdg.net header.b=jECG7PVE; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=beta.winserver.com header.b=MLfgTVhc
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l5fSzpFKhEI3 for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 09:57:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.winserver.com (mail.catinthebox.net [76.245.57.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BEA93A090B for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 09:57:55 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=isdg.net; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/relaxed; l=3965; t=1596214667; atps=ietf.org; atpsh=sha1; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From: Organization:To:Subject:List-ID; bh=QFOdK8yL8x/7yZa9YrwPQjWESDo=; b=jECG7PVEttQU1d8hNb7jELeJg9A8MH5gKqGHSCVibf5k+ztdwvQG+hxTPSjviO /qlD+AN0exXBD4CZSt3oXI2oG2BifLfyp41+GcEjeyNHT3j6N7YyDsjiRlw1Xmyb kk9HiaOByZLpULT6aNF08BdLbaQg3SVfmS/oHA+Jv2aUc=
Received: by mail.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v8.0.454.10) for dmarc@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:57:47 -0400
Authentication-Results: dkim.winserver.com; dkim=pass header.d=beta.winserver.com header.s=tms1 header.i=beta.winserver.com; dmarc=pass policy=reject author.d=isdg.net signer.d=beta.winserver.com (atps signer);
Received: from beta.winserver.com ([76.245.57.74]) by mail.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v8.0.454.10) with ESMTP id 2646957274.1.4280; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:57:47 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=beta.winserver.com; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/relaxed; l=3965; t=1596214552; h=Received:Received: Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:To:Subject:List-ID; bh=10iV7rW kslISePbVapDWVGooGxNf8LEVdETeALJFtIc=; b=MLfgTVhcV4VHjwUoUIBwyPT oaPWFllHlBeLE6L9x6abHmQBG/T2uwf0U1FM7X5xpJKP3G3g6ArAKA4LZs3i+cai pOFUUx2pMgKfLvn5s5HMua2jIDcgfD+QrGQFlgEDJj7mNitR9/TIOjCBhZHk+obw /AjVnC9e3/TfnGFnKObE=
Received: by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v8.0.454.10) for dmarc@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:55:52 -0400
Received: from [192.168.1.68] ([75.26.216.248]) by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v8.0.454.10) with ESMTP id 2357727109.1.62476; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:55:51 -0400
Message-ID: <5F244D90.4040201@isdg.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:57:52 -0400
From: Hector Santos <hsantos@isdg.net>
Reply-To: hsantos@isdg.net
Organization: Santronics Software, Inc.
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.8.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dmarc@ietf.org
References: <BY5PR13MB29998094418C8A6C25902569D7730@BY5PR13MB2999.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <c0361cb2-b25b-5d75-cb1f-f9c87e3ecccc@tana.it> <AE9A3A9F-27FC-4935-B8E6-AB0CE1A6D5E2@wordtothewise.com> <5F204CB3.7080404@isdg.net> <000001d66503$4d447e50$e7cd7af0$@bayviewphysicians.com> <5F21B338.8000700@isdg.net> <5d3dc8f8-2b89-54df-7698-b5c2ab341ab9@tana.it>
In-Reply-To: <5d3dc8f8-2b89-54df-7698-b5c2ab341ab9@tana.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/3UdF1_ZHaxZjx3zPHMTfGPDIvtM>
Subject: [dmarc-ietf] LSAP - Lightweight Signer Authorization Protocol methodology
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 16:57:59 -0000
On 7/31/2020 4:06 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >> hector wrote: >> >> base32(sha1(SIGNER-DOMAIN))._atps.isdg.net > Isn't that overly complicated? I don't think so, but sure, it is not 100% "Low Code." A hash "calculator" is needed. > Why SHA1? The intent was for a lightweight hashing that won't produce long hashing tags or labels or subdomains. Whats the maximum length of a domain? But mainly because Murray's ATPS was based off Doug Otis's TPA-LABEL which used the same hashing algorithm. DKIM Third-Party Authorization Label https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-otis-dkim-tpa-label-06 Doug provided a portable C-based TPA-Label calculator source code in Appendix B. ATPS was the "simpler" version of TPA-Label. TPA-label was a little complex for a period when it was extremely challenging in the DKIM WG to get a Author::Signer relationship endorsed. Remember, we were dealing with push back even the 1st party DNS lookup policy. There was general agreement TPA-Label offer more scalability. ATPS was just simpler to plug and play, explore and test the proof of concept and that it did. > An alternative method to authorize 3rd parties is RHSWLs, Let me (re)state I believe in a "Black Box" functional design and engineering. I am not stuck on ATPS. It is about the functional methodology for an Author::Signer association, a "Lightweight Signer Authorization Protocol" or LSAP. We had the same with LMAP "Lightweight MTA Authorization Protocol." Maybe LSAP can do for DMARC, what LMAP did for SPF. But imo, we need to get consensus with a LSAP methodology. With consensus, a specific method can be worked out. > see my previous post[*]. By > comparison with the above quote, assume we have: > > From: someone@example.com > Sender: auto@example.net > > The DMARC record at example.com: > > v=DMARC1; p=reject; snd=lst.rhswl.example; rua=mailto:rua@example.com; > > The snd=lst.rhswl.example tells a compliant receiver that if it sees a > 3rd party authentication (either SPF or DKIM) of the Sender domain:, > where: > > From: domain IS NOT EQUAL TO Sender: domain > > Then it can do a right-hand side whitelist lookup: > > example.net.lst.rhswl.example > > If the record exists, then example.net is authorized to send on behalf > of example.com. Sure, again, imo, we need a BLACK BOX "LSAP" methodology to be work out. see below. > Features: > > * Absence of cryptographic stuff (sha1) makes it simpler. > > * A multi-domain bank (Autumn's example) can easily build its own > RHSWL containing all and only their domains, e.g.: > > firstbrand.com.lst.mainbrand.com IN A 127.0.0.2 > secondbrand.com.lst.mainbrand.com IN A 127.0.0.2 > > * Large free-email domains can build their own RHSWL so as to avoid > the MLM problem. > > * Lazy mail domains can easily point to a public RHSWL which lists > almost all the legitimate Internet. > > * Strictly transactional domains can still keep snd=none (the default). > > * Experimenting domains can have p=none; snd=lst.in-progress.example; > while they monitor aggregate reports to see how their list is doing. Do you have a I-D? If not, why not write up the draft proposal so it can better reviewed and maybe even explored? Based on discussions, it sounds this LSAP model would include author, signer, sender identities: Authorized := LSAP(Author, Signer, Sender) This was the same idea with LMAP for SPF. Authorized := LMAP(IP, Domain) In SPF, the LMAP function is called Check_Host() with arguments: <ip> - the IP address of the SMTP client that is emitting the mail, either IPv4 or IPv6. <domain> - the domain that provides the sought-after authorization information; initially, the domain portion of the "MAIL FROM" or "HELO" identity. <sender> - the "MAIL FROM" or "HELO" identity. -- Hector Santos, https://secure.santronics.com https://twitter.com/hectorsantos
- [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for differ… Autumn Tyr-Salvia
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Doug Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Autumn Tyr-Salvia
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jeremy Harris
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Ken O'Driscoll
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Luis E. Muñoz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- [dmarc-ietf] LSAP - Lightweight Signer Authorizat… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Ken O'Driscoll
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Benny Pedersen
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Autumn Tyr-Salvia
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Hannu Aronsson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Hannu Aronsson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Tõnu Tammer
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Autumn Tyr-Salvia
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Time for a change Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Time for a change Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Time for a change Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Time for a change Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Time for a change Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Autumn Tyr-Salvia
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] finer grained org domain John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] finer grained org domain Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] finer grained org domain Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] finer grained org domain Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] finer grained org domain Seth Blank
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Time for a change Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Tim Draegen
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Brandon Long
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Brandon Long
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] non-mailing list use case for di… Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Doug Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] draft-levine-dkim-conditional-04… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] draft-levine-dkim-conditional-04… Douglas E. Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] draft-levine-dkim-conditional-04… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] third party authorization, not, … Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] my forward signer draft, third p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] my forward signer draft, third p… Rolf E. Sonneveld