Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just MLMs
"Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com> Thu, 13 April 2023 17:55 UTC
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From: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
CC: Todd Herr <todd.herr@valimail.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "dmarc@ietf.org" <dmarc@ietf.org>, "superuser@gmail.com" <superuser@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just MLMs
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/8YPDHGlc-T1i5edpwms7KDKtejU>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just MLMs
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I’ve talked about this before. I ran into a utility company that I conversed with that explicitly didn’t want to use DKIM because they felt their messages should not be forwarded to another provider. I didn’t quite understand the logic, but it was their decision. I definitely favor some language that endorses using both and perhaps even outlines the pitfalls of using only one (can’t forward, both gives you a better chance of success, etc) -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast From: dmarc <dmarc-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Barry Leiba Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2023 12:44 PM To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com> Cc: Todd Herr <todd.herr@valimail.com>; John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>; dmarc@ietf.org; superuser@gmail.com Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just MLMs We can say that as well, but I want to specifically say "don't use SPF without DKIM and expect it to work right;" b On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:41 PM Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com<mailto:dotzero@gmail.com>> wrote: On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:19 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org<mailto:barryleiba@computer.org>> wrote: Maybe just add a sentence to the end of the second paragraph: The use of SPF alone, without DKIM, is strongly NOT RECOMMENDED. Barry I think the opposite. Something along the lines of "Sending domains SHOULD implement both SPF and DKIM to minimize breakage and non-delivery of mail. Michael Hammer On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:04 PM Todd Herr <todd.herr@valimail.com<mailto:todd.herr@valimail.com>> wrote: On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 11:21 AM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org<mailto:barryleiba@computer.org>> wrote: > Anyone who does forwarding is damaged by DMARC because there are a lot of > people who do DMARC on the cheap with SPF only. This brings up another issue, I think: that there should also be stronger advice that using DKIM is critical to DMARC reliability, and using SPF only, without DKIM, is strongly NOT RECOMMENDED. I don't disagree. How do we make the following text stronger? 5.5.2. <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-dmarc-dmarcbis-27.html*section-5.5.2__;Iw!!CQl3mcHX2A!H87wu6y3e2soX0zP84RFzpVkIns3srnOJHF_OvVIcO6eY0hUFqSYNPCI4pxutzABuCuQJXNB9Xigw7eeIIoCVigM0w$> Configure Sending System for DKIM Signing Using an Aligned Domain<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-dmarc-dmarcbis-27.html*name-configure-sending-system-fo__;Iw!!CQl3mcHX2A!H87wu6y3e2soX0zP84RFzpVkIns3srnOJHF_OvVIcO6eY0hUFqSYNPCI4pxutzABuCuQJXNB9Xigw7eeIIpXBM2lNg$> While it is possible to secure a DMARC pass verdict based on only one of SPF or DKIM, it is commonly accepted best practice to ensure that both authentication mechanisms are in place to guard against failure of just one of them. This is particularly important because SPF will always fail in situations where mail is sent to a forwarding address offered by a professional society, school or other institution, where the address simply relays the message to the recipient's current "real" address. Many recipients use such addresses and with SPF alone and not DKIM, messages sent to such users will always produce DMARC fail. The Domain Owner SHOULD choose a DKIM-Signing domain (i.e., the d= domain in the DKIM-Signature header) that aligns with the Author Domain. -- Todd Herr | Technical Director, Standards and Ecosystem e: todd.herr@valimail.com<mailto:todd.herr@valimail.com> m: 703.220.4153 This email and all data transmitted with it contains confidential and/or proprietary information intended solely for the use of individual(s) authorized to receive it. If you are not an intended and authorized recipient you are hereby notified of any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the information included in this transmission is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please immediately notify the sender by replying to this email and then delete it from your system. _______________________________________________ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org<mailto:dmarc@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!H87wu6y3e2soX0zP84RFzpVkIns3srnOJHF_OvVIcO6eY0hUFqSYNPCI4pxutzABuCuQJXNB9Xigw7eeIIrbx80Ukg$>
- [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Steven M Jones
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Mark Alley
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Barry Leiba
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Brotman, Alex
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling forwarders, not just M… Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Give up on SPF alone Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] list history, Signaling MLMs John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] list history, Signaling MLMs Jesse Thompson
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] list history, Signaling MLMs John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] list history, Signaling MLMs Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] list history, Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] list history, Signaling MLMs Wei Chuang
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Give up on SPF alone Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Neil Anuskiewicz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Benny Pedersen
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Benny Pedersen
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Benny Pedersen
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Benny Pedersen
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Benny Pedersen
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Signaling MLMs Alessandro Vesely