Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and privacy implications of failure reports
Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com> Tue, 05 January 2021 20:48 UTC
Return-Path: <dcrocker@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4833A11F0 for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:48:56 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.36
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.36 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.262, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n5rp1adEdc6q for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:48:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BB393A11EA for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:48:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id lb18so347926pjb.5 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 12:48:55 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=btW3z7ME5UeuF2gE1nsPbfIf9JaYWdy4iBn11cUwlXw=; b=C0V3jhgLO+Kv0y1WvQ1OBMvYezSvWSVgU1RjhvEBrQkJ9q4zpNRR75G4HjJoa80usl kuW+X821VRjxtydjKwwpB1omVQc1K/bvEHO1A78Z9KhETRzyCfOJVWtwS38GsNf5eP3d bNzH2Ql5ynIf1aIUkqMYa561qYrLdihfSN2oXKT3VAj31tgBM4Rv2EZK7YpR29db6FHj sGAAAZGMC0uxCVHTEIRaH5Uz05d8ajVJplfqt1EDDUXraPzqH1TgBQ1vKDIdBipb0es7 dxwtep47r69JkDu84pIwk/vi3EVRGJe59zwLw1/sGD8VE2a5oIQGOXKwMYc0wcC6Th7p OT8w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=btW3z7ME5UeuF2gE1nsPbfIf9JaYWdy4iBn11cUwlXw=; b=mnMbBHFYcE9ZaQHdqBcmcOw2WiaYve1JNz5rCA1D+QrFzdQqTiroRLzyZ8O5BRf1nu x9OjE3S5HHi2OENzkQ7vl/VQVHroDXzYMOZ+v7gwvniGdbxnaInLAnxwvZ/GxdeNEHQb lBnVYGJtCBHliUufh2yvAlvI0IGTAoR8NtmAe3fnKN75Rg+Pxq7TfAa/NR43lU+cJe4+ UKyxNV3wcwoyR/5KOdzoCDtY9VDcZkB30tiIvpTrjuY+Zor3c7i722zRV2aExWawkvcl K+Cpv9lKKY2Ab2iis3Vn3/R57tFqs3LglAAiWtGMAiLDWQyKffsKeXe6SJYJ4GGXOil/ O5GQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ECLl6gXL4FB714+hMGPPbR0R8fDliI8vzSXCQxxUX9R2yhmSK bYu5LriHYVNteSlNFWJdFb69zhUcwzU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/zvpCrpDrPos3VXoLuSy76vXMxKZBLsu70AofTST9DIVVzR1d3g0OTS0Ir2rxpwZcKsEBjA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:fb8a:: with SMTP id cp10mr963928pjb.136.1609879734570; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 12:48:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.0.109] (c-24-130-62-181.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.130.62.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d20sm4143051pjz.3.2021.01.05.12.48.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Jan 2021 12:48:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>, dmarc@ietf.org
References: <20210104174623.2545154CFF9F@ary.qy> <FD45F9FC-46B0-40A9-ADC6-DDD7650D62F2@bluepopcorn.net> <ae77d9f-6f63-16ca-903a-7cb463a7b58d@taugh.com> <CABuGu1o2t7WaEOh+nsx3_MRUGgGHqKHzQ9302FM9-HL0GxvJvA@mail.gmail.com> <f15c8f53-8075-99a1-83c7-f687200e6a94@gmail.com> <f640ee95-ba0a-6aa7-1a14-2af1db151e27@mtcc.com> <050e8614-c088-a165-a733-35c5eee52eed@gmail.com> <cd3a41e8-cc4f-05eb-5c86-47b0047e8d08@mtcc.com>
From: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9e23994-8666-5c3f-3e42-9a12a2ed6daf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 12:48:52 -0800
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <cd3a41e8-cc4f-05eb-5c86-47b0047e8d08@mtcc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/BhSauaEiNEwZgAqxgqgXRrJdLXs>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and privacy implications of failure reports
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 20:48:57 -0000
On 1/5/2021 12:11 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 1/5/21 12:04 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> >> 1. I've looked back over his postings to this mailing list and am not >> finding the link you refer to. Please post it (again). >> >> 2. A single study is unlikely to be definitive about much of anything. >> > https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurity18/sec18-hu.pdf > thanks. How carefully did you read the details? While I suppose the study is a bit interesting, it's a very long way from serving as definitive 'proof' of much of anything. > Actual data, actual experiments. Finally. And it's a lot better than > all of the conjecture here which is the currency of the realm. > You might want to review the actual semantics of the statistical methods used for actual experiments. They don't mean what you seem to think they mean. In particular note that the focus of such semantics is on negatives, rather than positives. It's the reason that conclusions about affirmative statements require a constellation of studies. > I use my inner Luddite to use all of the time. It's one of my skills. > But an MUA designed with security in mind with its UI would go a long > way too. From re-writing is exactly the wrong thing to do from a > security standpoint though. That's been a regular refrain, for decades. Odd that we do not yet see actual efficacy, after all that... conjecture. By now, there should be that constellation of compelling evidence for the efficacy of visual indicators with average recipients. d/ -- Dave Crocker dcrocker@gmail.com 408.329.0791 Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter American Red Cross dave.crocker2@redcross.org
- [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and priva… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Seth Blank
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… ned+dmarc
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… ned+dmarc
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… ned+dmarc
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] reporting documents, Ticket #55 … John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] reporting documents, Ticket #55 … Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] reporting documents, Ticket #55 … Seth Blank
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] reporting documents, Ticket #55 … Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] reporting documents, Ticket #55 … John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] reporting documents, Ticket #55 … Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] reporting documents, Ticket #55 … ned+dmarc
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Todd Herr
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… ned+dmarc
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… ned+dmarc
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Paypal security confirm your password now
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Jim Fenton
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Laura Atkins
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Michael Thomas
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Douglas Foster
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Header Rewriting John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Ticket #55 - Clarify legal and p… Dave Crocker