Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd
Scott Kitterman <sklist@kitterman.com> Tue, 10 December 2019 00:54 UTC
Return-Path: <sklist@kitterman.com>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33DE912021C for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:54:16 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=kitterman.com header.b=JI32lmzp; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kitterman.com header.b=RaC9huS3
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8baasLGRt-pz for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:54:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from interserver.kitterman.com (interserver.kitterman.com [IPv6:2604:a00:6:1039:225:90ff:feaa:b169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1835612002F for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:54:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from interserver.kitterman.com (interserver.kitterman.com [IPv6:2604:a00:6:1039:225:90ff:feaa:b169]) by interserver.kitterman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 875A1F80267 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Dec 2019 19:54:11 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kitterman.com; i=@kitterman.com; q=dns/txt; s=201903e; t=1575939251; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : in-reply-to : references : mime-version : content-transfer-encoding : content-type : from; bh=lVIJ9YxYjPhVXlDHnUDRReEc748C/zpEHT76HENK4jE=; b=JI32lmzpgeOkE1ca68MO8Zm67wZSDdtddJiwxecgUMzk++o4eiK9QM3o RT9AWc8Lpvflvrv7vLy/aIcsL1WNDg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kitterman.com; i=@kitterman.com; q=dns/txt; s=201903r; t=1575939251; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : in-reply-to : references : mime-version : content-transfer-encoding : content-type : from; bh=lVIJ9YxYjPhVXlDHnUDRReEc748C/zpEHT76HENK4jE=; b=RaC9huS3+KS8Z9+qlVnU0ZETD3ndydquM96+BWufTminvXvouZXpxxoo 3XPzAndqIE0ldIs/NelNZa01tjgFINENNR7ZR+VOJXrAqGK5bM/IAJwDME 4cbPUAvBGnU6zafAa+tVzmGjrBzKmnDwDCKy722CGpRHUsE15xrI4lj7u3 YD4exgBsKMICaLC3B1bXmP9V2c8hcFxpGjj6+PAArpVJHygQdlTWMWQUk+ RIDkWERR6aLz1ZeUZp4jLMTs9n/y8c28dFE85YJwfdUbdd2QFsHnJAO5PK yZO5jNzEPbmsiAkxGyw+5CU3xdIebwfkoMLbUUlSleRJ9PQW5nH4hw==
Received: from l5580.localnet (static-72-81-252-22.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.22]) by interserver.kitterman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B078F80096 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Dec 2019 19:54:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Kitterman <sklist@kitterman.com>
To: IETF DMARC WG <dmarc@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 19:54:10 -0500
Message-ID: <92703458.QmNNAb80T6@l5580>
In-Reply-To: <CABa8R6vV3=mONXUehda_6C616CyEXPRjceSN8T+DcPmLQwcXOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <728d7df1-d563-82f4-bfb3-a65a75fdd662@gmail.com> <082f2102-693c-136d-874c-1182f12a6818@gmail.com> <CABa8R6vV3=mONXUehda_6C616CyEXPRjceSN8T+DcPmLQwcXOA@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/OIXOw745UuG-4YobAa0WkbPW15E>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 00:54:16 -0000
On Monday, December 9, 2019 7:41:27 PM EST Brandon Long wrote: > On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 8:44 AM Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 12/7/2019 12:11 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > >> Remind me again the the additional work is that might be too much? > > >> Isn't it just another DNS lookup for the org domain -1... of which > > >> there are maybe a couple thousand and easily cacheable? > > >> > > >> This seems way less than say the additional work for ARC. > > > > > > It's slightly more. There's also a check to see if a LPSD (org -1) > > > is a PSD > DMARC participant. Exactly how to document that is the major > > > unresolved question that we should evaluate experimentally. It might > > > be one of three > > > > > things: > > First, this sort of exchange highlights the need for considering basic > > operational issues carefully and before publication. > > > > Second, it highlights the challenges of doing that in a way that isn't > > myopic. What is easy/cheap for highly motivated, expert, well-resourced > > participants might not be all that easy or cheap for the larger Internet > > community. (This is the operational side of scalability.) > > Ah, re-reading the spec, I'd guess we're talking about the scalability of > psddmarc.org. It's only relevant for the purposes of the experiment. Part of coming to consensus on the longer term plan would be making sure we have a scalable approach for determining PSD DMARC participants. > [snip] > > > Also, any suggestion to rely on a published list ignores the history of > > problems with such lists, as well as at least requiring a careful > > specification for the list and a basis for believing it will be > > maintained well. > > I mean, the PSL is already a maintained object. Is this new detail > something > that has different ownership/privacy/etc concerns than the existing details? > > I'm sure I probably missed this, but couldn't we avoid this question by > just mandating > no reporting for non-existing organizational domains? Is that a > non-starter? It's one of the use cases we are trying to cover. I don't know if that makes it a non-starter. Scott K
- [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Chudow, Eric B CIV NSA DSAW (USA)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Ian Levy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Ian Levy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Brandon Long
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Ian Levy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd John R Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Brandon Long
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Brandon Long
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Brandon Long
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Brandon Long
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Ian Levy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Ian Levy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Craig Schwartz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Andrew Kennedy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dotzero
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Org domaines, not really Comment… John Levine
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Craig Schwartz
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Dave Crocker
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Chudow, Eric B CIV NSA DSAW (USA)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Hector Santos
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on DMARCbis, was draft-i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on DMARCbis, was draft-i… Jane Moneypenny
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on DMARCbis, was draft-i… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on DMARCbis, was draft-i… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Tim Wicinski
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on draft-ietf-dmarc-psd Scott Kitterman
- Re: [dmarc-ietf] Comment on DMARCbis, was draft-i… Jane Moneypenny